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AI Diplomacy deals is broken

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by LDiCesare, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    When you make a deal with the AI, it evaluates the deal in totally unrational way.

    Example 1 (deity difficulty level):
    Pericles attackedme for some obscure reason. He lost 2 helicopter corps, one or 2 mech infantry, pillages 3 tiles of mine. I never set foot on his territory because there's a city state in between I can't go through.
    He begs for peace.
    His offer is:
    Niter, Iron, Horses (dude, it's atomic era and I have many of these already)
    Pitiful amount of gold (like 4 and 1/turn)
    2 CITIES of his.

    Yuck. Ok, let's say that, since England DOW'ed him, are a backwater civ with a single city, he's maybe afraid of waging wars on 2 fronts, whatever.

    So, I think, why not? I don't care about the horses etc. so I want to alter this deal and get some gold instead.
    If I remove the horses, he no longer wants the deal.
    I imagine the negotiations go that way:
    PERICLES: "Please take Corinth and Mycenae, and also take these nice horses and a few gold pieces."
    ME: "Ok, but you can keep the horses."
    PERICLES: "Are you crazy? I only declared war so I could lose and get rid of the horses! The deal is Corinth, Mycenae AND THE HORSES!!! Otherwise we don't have a deal."
    ME: "Errr... OK. I'll take the horse too, then."
    PERICLES: "No. I changed my mind. If you want that deal again, quit and reload the turn or wait a few years that I lose a few more units. Maybe I'll offer three cities at this point. After all, the only foray you did in my lands was pillaging my sea improvements and I've got no navy, that probably warrants more cities if I rebuild them."

    Example 2:
    Someone makes an offer. You change the luxury resource they propose (I mean, I already have it, why do they offer in the first palce?). They no longer agree. I tweak the figures, lowering the gold they offered till maybe they'll give me the luxury I want.
    At some point, the AI suddenly accepts everything. Everything. All their gold, gpt, all their lucuries.
    WTF?

    Example 3:
    Thsi one is more of an UI problem.
    Someone sells you something. They offer 1 gold and 1 gpt.
    You click gold. It goes up to 101.They still agree. You go on clicking until you find out they will agree to 143gold and 1gpt, but you had to click it by dichotomy instead of the "what would make it work" single click.


    Conclusion:
    The AI diplo screen does not evaluate the offer in a consistent way.
    When you make a deal, the AI should give it a value and say yes/no based on it. If you add and then remove something from the deal, the AI must value it the same way. Otherwise, it's stupid, exploitable and leads to a click-fest in order to find out how to make the best deal.
    I like bartering in this kind of games. It gives a feeling of interaction, something not warlike, it could be a lot of fun. But if the AI is irrational, it becomes an optimisation problem instead of an immersive bartering experience.
     
    plus, sidiust, Heklios and 2 others like this.
  2. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    I've experienced some of this shenanigans too.

    If you play with the system enough, adding and taking away stuff, you might reach a point in which suddently the AI accepts a clearly unfavorable deal like... a luxury resource for free.
     
  3. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    Trajan is friendly and happy with me. Our relations couldn't be better. He signed a friendship pact with me, and he gets bribed by the French to attack me. No logic in this diplomacy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  4. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Yeah, I got Norway to declare a joint war with me, but they only agreed only after they generously were going to give me all their gold per turn.

    Oddly enough, this glitch doesn't seem to work with great works or cities. However, you can get all their gold, luxury, and strategic resources sometimes, for no reason.

    Also, I learned today that if the computer hates you enough, sometimes they'll offer deals asking for hundreds of gold per turn and luxuries for nothing. You can decline these offers, but its still stupid. I think its part of their 'fair' deal with relationship modifiers, it like, treats gold per turn from you as worthless, but it still wants to offer deals, so it asks for things but hates you too much to give anything in return.
     
    Flak Fox likes this.
  5. Takfloyd

    Takfloyd Prince

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    I spent 300 turns friended/allied to two AI civs, never got a single diplomatic penalty from them, showered them with good deals and gifts and ended up at more than a +40 positive relationship modifier. Suddenly on a turn I hadn't renewed the alliances, they both go to war against me for absolutely no reason.

    I've also had tons of absurd bugs like being declared war against by AIs I haven't met, or AIs ABSOLUTELY REFUSING to be gifted Horses (is this a recurring theme?) or Open Borders.

    And let's not forget that the AIs will contact you with a deal, and greet you with "What can I do for you?" Even if the deal is a one.sided demand for tribute. Oh, but then I can just click "what will make this deal work" and sometimes they suggest giving ME tribute instead.

    There's nothing that isn't broken beyond repair with this AI, and I can't fathom how it got past even the first round of testing.
     
    Heklios likes this.
  6. mzprox

    mzprox Prince

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    -bought a relic for 10 gold
    -they buy 5 copies of a luxury even though they already have that type
    -etc
     
  7. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    Same here. Kongo, which I have never met, declared war on me :crazyeye: And it was me who appeared in the diplomatic screen declaring the war on myself. I declared war on myself :lol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
    Heklios likes this.
  8. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    AI went full retard in my recent game. Barbarossa becomes friendly quite fast and declares friendship with me after our little skirmish for his settler in ancient era (that's okay I guess, no penalties in ancient and no cities taken, so bros). Then Harald comes to praise my navy, which I have zero, nada :dubious: Then immediately attacks :dubious: Then Barbarossa the declared friend attacks :dubious:
     
  9. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    The best thing in my game is they never attacked me. French came with a few warriors and stood in front of the city, then suddenly she signed a peace after a few turns.

    I also tried to sign a peace with Rome, but no. Then, they suddenly want peace, but they also want to give me gold for peace. How stupid is that? A turn ago they could sign a peace without the gold :lol: No logic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
    sanchopanda likes this.
  10. ThunderLizard2

    ThunderLizard2 Warlord

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    This was what happened in Civ V at launch as well. The AI would give some or all of their cities after losing a few units. Totally moronic behavior that ruins any immersion in the game.
     
  11. Ozisl

    Ozisl Warlord

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    I was surprised to see me declare war on myself as a joint war with a civ I haven't contacted. 10 turns later, after not even seeing an enemy unit, I/they declared peace. 2 turns after that, the other civ asked for an alliance. Diplomacy AI is about as bad as it can be.
     
  12. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    A lot of the behaviour mentioned here is part of the Bug report thread. I agree : It's immersion breaking but it's a bug thing as well. I'm quite sure bugs will get crushed soon. Or should get... Not everything will get solved but hopefully most of it...
     
  13. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    The problem to begin with is that such bugs shouldn't even be possible if the AI used the simplest algorithm that exists (weight X vs Y). How they managed to code something more complex and bugged is dumbfounding and an achievement of itself.
     
  14. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    Very helpful. Thanks.
     
  15. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    Programming AI is very complex. Trying to write your own AI is a quick lesson in humiliation. While I doubt the very best a brightest programmers are working at Firaxis I am willing to bet that are at least competent and the work is far from dumbfounding.

    I do think though we need to keep posting examples like this so they can refine the logic the AI uses to complete trades. Valuing Cities should probably be a function of weighting the number of districts/hammers/food/wonders/distance from current cities weighted towards the first 4 or 5. Gold/lux/strategic resources should probably just have hard coded values that are multiplied by relationship status.
     
  16. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    Making an AI value a deal is extremely simple.
    Value all the terms on left, all on right and come up with a value yes/no.
    If when you have the same terms right and left you don't always get the same result, it means you can't program an evaluation function that produces the same result twice..
    That's not very complex. That is the most basic programming task.

    What is complex is stuff like valuing "now" versus "per turn". The only sensible solution to this problem are that used in civ4, namely outright disallow it, or link it to a peace treaty which forces the "per turn" to be kept. This requires some thought, but having a reliable UI doesn't.
     
  17. Takfloyd

    Takfloyd Prince

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    I keep seeing people posting this assumption. And it's invariably people with zero clue about programming. There are actual AI programmers who post on this forum, and they confirm what is obvious to anyone not in blind denial - that whoever wrote the AI for Civ VI is a moron who should never have gotten the job, because most of the stuff the AI fails at is extremely easy to code.
     
  18. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Could you point us to one of the many AI programmers in this forum?

    Amazing. Which, of the many AI programmers in this forum, has confirmed such a bold claim?

    In short, is there any truth to anything you just said Takfloyd?

    Please answer, I'm honestly interested.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Heklios likes this.
  19. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    Me for instance.
     
  20. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Great, nice to know LDiCesare.

    Do you agree with the following?:

    I'm honestly interested.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016

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