AI dogpiling on 3.17

[phungus420]

On a standard map with 7 or so rivals 6 is pretty standard actually.

I agree on the AP. I'm pretty sure it was that. AP effects all civs with any city with the religion, even if running FR--until the Civ with the AP discovers MM. The AI almost never defys the resolutions either. It will if it's friendly with the infidel nation and only has 1 or 2 minor cities with the AP religion, but if not, it's kind of forced into the war.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I had 6 cities which is more than enough in a standard map.



I wish that I have a save or log, anyway the timeline of the event was like:

1st turn: Brennus and Peter signed permanent Alliance.
2nd turn: Brennus and Peter declared war.
3rd turn: Nothing happened
4th turn: Nothing happened
5th turn: All other AIs declared war.

So yes it might have been an AP.

6 cities is not "more than enough". It is a bare minimum to just get some of the national wonders. While it's certainly possible to win with 6-8, on higher difficulties you'll probably want at least 12. An exception may be culture, where you'll want 9 if you can get them so you can put 50% religious buildings in all cities.

Also, unless you had a vassal that Sal didn't like, there is exactly zero chance he declares at friendly outside an AP resolution. Maybe it was a combo of a DoW and an AP resolution though.

 

[phungus420]

Maybe it was a combo of a DoW and an AP resolution though.

It would have to have been. You can't have an AP war vote unless a member is at war with a civ w/o the AP religion.

 

[Joshua368]

On a standard map with 7 or so rivals 6 is pretty standard actually.

No, I play standard maps all the time with the standard number of rivals. Sure its possible to win with a small amount of cities but they better be really dang good ones. (i.e. you really gotta know what you're doing) Unless you're going for culture... but even then nine is ideal.

I have no rigid rule set that I follow, but typically I prefer to have about 3 cities by 1000 BC, 6-8 cities by 0 AD, pause to let my economy recover, and then fill in the rest of the area around during the middle ages, one way or another. 15 or so cities can usually take you through a peaceful game. And there's always enough room to settle regardless of map size.

What level of difficulty do you play? How easy are space wins for you with six cities?

 

[Deep_Blue]

Wow, I play huge maps, 6 cities isn't even a state (or a county) ----apologies...

This was a standard map where 6-8 cities would be more than enough for an experienced player. And it is not Huge.

And wow I play Terra maps, 12 isn't even a state.. So what is your point?

 

[Deep_Blue]

Yeah, at 500 B.C.


No wonder you were falling behind in tech and a delicious target for other civs.

Why you don't actually read my posts "This is a Standard map" you only need 6-8 specialized cities.

And 6 would be more than enough for a cultural victory. Actually I got cultural on huge map once with 5 cities only!!

I started a Huge map once with 6 cities till 500 AD and ended up with domination victory (Emperor), so what is your point?

Not the number of cities what does matter but the quality of those cities.

 

[BigRoy04]

Why you don't actually read my posts "This is a Standard map" you only need 6-8 specialized cities.

And 6 would be more than enough for a cultural victory. Actually I got cultural on huge map once with 5 cities only!!

I agree Deep Blue. Too many times posts are made stating a difficulty or a change in game play by the AI and there seems to be a collection of people here that just use this forum to big note themselves.

The reality is that there has been significant changes to the AI in version 3.17. Like you I used to play on Emperor on lower version and now I can't. This has either come about through excessive whoring by the AI or by some other means. When I posted this, I just got comments like "maybe your just not as good as your thought you were".

I empathise but can't help. The realitiy is that 6 cities is no longer enough. You have to go to war as there is no way to build enough and settle fast enough on 3.17 to get more than 6 through settling. In fact I count myself lucky to get 6. More often I'm locked into 4 these days as the AI is usually so close and has you blocked very very early. Build up millitary, pick off a couple of your neighbours. Stop. Build up again, pick of a few more. But....... if you have monte or shak on one of your borders then good luck, you'll be at war whether you like it or not and you will never win. Despite building 100 units they will still be up to date on techs.

Perhaps Snaaty can do a new walk through on how to defeat the new AI - that would help a lot.

 

[BigRoy04]

Why you don't actually read my posts "This is a Standard map" you only need 6-8 specialized cities.

And 6 would be more than enough for a cultural victory. Actually I got cultural on huge map once with 5 cities only!!

I agree Deep Blue. Too many times posts are made stating a difficulty or a change in game play by the AI and there seems to be a collection of people here that just use this forum to big note themselves.

The reality is that there has been significant changes to the AI in version 3.17. Like you I used to play on Emperor on lower version and now I can't. This has either come about through excessive whoring by the AI or by some other means. When I posted this, I just got comments like "maybe your just not as good as your thought you were".

I empathise but can't help. The realitiy is that 6 cities is no longer enough. You have to go to war as there is no way to build enough and settle fast enough on 3.17 to get more than 6 through settling. In fact I count myself lucky to get 6. More often I'm locked into 4 these days as the AI is usually so close and has you blocked very very early. Build up millitary, pick off a couple of your neighbours. Stop. Build up again, pick of a few more. But....... if you have monte or shak on one of your borders then good luck, you'll be at war whether you like it or not and you will never win. Despite building 100 units they will still be up to date on techs.

Perhaps Snaaty can do a new walk through on how to defeat the new AI - that would help a lot.

 

[Deep_Blue]

Thanks BigRoy04 you are the only one who made a comment relevant to the subject of this thread!
I am talking here about the big differences in the AI from 3.03 to 3.17 but I only got few comments about how many cities you need !!

Maybe 6 cities is not enough in the new version, maybe 3.17 is more for warmongers than peacemongers. It could be that I need to get used to the new version before I get back to Emperor. Thats all fine but I wanted some info (and sharing experience) about changes on the new AI thats why I started this thread.

 

[Joshua368]

Why you don't actually read my posts "This is a Standard map" you only need 6-8 specialized cities.

And 6 would be more than enough for a cultural victory. Actually I got cultural on huge map once with 5 cities only!!

I started a Huge map once with 6 cities till 500 AD and ended up with domination victory (Emperor), so what is your point?

Standard map meaning to normal size between small and large, right? Yeah, I know...

Also culture is easy enough with only three cities, and domination... do I even have to explain it? Six at 500 AD is decent already, expecially since your domination path will quickly get you plenty more cities, including great ones like enemy capitals. Winning domination can be done with only founding like three or four cities, as long as you get aggressive early to capture what else you need.

It's great if you can win space race with a few cities, it's certainly possible. But if you have a lot of trouble keeping up with the AI in tech and military during a peaceful game... and a religious love fest only goes so far. 5 - 6 cities is a really small nation on a standard sized map, and unless you're going for cultural or diplomatic you'll have to keep up with the true superpowers in research and might.


I don't play version 3.03 though so I guess I'm not sure what you could get by with then.

 

[azzaman333]

1) I'd guess that rather than the AI teaming up against you, there were just a few Jewish civs happy with each other who were willing to trade around their discoveries, and convineintly for them they focused on different paths through sheer fluke

2) That sort of declaration is definately an AP resolution

3) The AIs will attack if you're getting close to victory, with the sole intention to stop you from winning.

 

[phungus420]

1)3) The AIs will attack if you're getting close to victory, with the sole intention to stop you from winning.

CIV AI does not do this. It is unaware of the fact you are winning. It's being discussed weather it should be added in the Better AI forums, people are of mixed oppinions on this.

As for the AI being better in 3.17, I didn't notice since I was using Bhuric's unoficial patch, basically 3.17 was an inclusion of the unoficial patch into 3.13, so yes the AI improved, but that's mainly due to fixing of bugs in the 3.13 code. For people using Bhuric's, they wol't notice. Though the AI should be harder in regards to teching, etc (it's still a joke when it comes to modern warfare though--the AI has a very poor understanding of air power). Seriously most of this is due to bug fixes though, so the AI doesn't do ******** things, it has absolutely nothing to do with AI tech Whoring. Well the AI tech Whores, but then so do human players, and the AI doesn't tech Whore any more now then it did in 3.03.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

AI tech trades amongst themselves military techs just as whoringly as they do economic/science techs. They will not trade military techs any where as easily with the human. Coding arguments don't phase me as experiences and true gameplay tell the real tale. I can't even play a game without turning off Tech Brokering so that the AI has some kind of scruples forced upon it.

 

[phungus420]

AI tech trades amongst themselves military techs just as whoringly as they do economic/science techs. They will not trade military techs any where as easily with the human. Coding arguments don't phase me as experiences and true gameplay tell the real tale. I can't even play a game without turning off Tech Brokering so that the AI has some kind of scruples forced upon it.

I agree. My main point was that the AI tech whores the same in 3.17 as it did in 3.03, the diference is that it simply techs faster in 3.17, since there are a bunch of AI bug fixes. Since it techs faster, it's techwhoring is far more noticeable though.

 

[Deep_Blue]

What I am certain of is that the AI in 3.17 is way faster in Techs, My question is that is the game still playable without switching off Tech Brokering on Immortal?

 

[Vorret]

yeahok I've had this happend twice in my game and both time I had the AP...

last time, on an archipelago map, 14 civs.

5 civs delcared on me on the same turn...
3 of those were pleased 2 cautious the other annoyed.

not that it matter, jao dropped 1 knight and that was it, still weird.

 

[azzaman333]

CIV AI does not do this. It is unaware of the fact you are winning. It's being discussed weather it should be added in the Better AI forums, people are of mixed oppinions on this.

I haven't played a Cultural or Space Race game in a while, but I have definetaly read posts claiming that the AI is more likely to attack when you are close to winning.

Diplo (UN and AP) don't have that easily measuable yardstick for how close a civ is to winning, and domination and conquest you're going to be wanting to kill everyone anyway.

 

[BigRoy04]

Either way telling someone they suck at this game, or they're not good enough, or they should drop down because they are not as good as them is just unneeded and unwarranted.

Deep Blue keep plugging away. I did drop back to Monach after the upgrade to see if I could learn the new patterns, but I just got sick af loosing every game. It still blows me away that I can have rifling when all other known nations dont have paper, education and Replace Parts and within four-ten turns of declaring war, bang not only do they have it but they have managed upgrade every city even on Monarch. Where did they get it from and what did they trade it for? Still we live and learn. What I have worked out over the years is that because we are human we will work out a way to get back on top, no matter the AI.