AI (Shouldn't we call it AS?) does not realize implications of vassals!

[douglas_21]

The scenario: 575 AD (I'm russia)

Russia is at war with Mali.
Mali and Korea have good relations.(Pleased)
Russia and Korea have good relations. (Pleased)
Korea is above Russia on pwr, Russia above Mali on power.
Mali is about to be obliterated by my axes & cats.
Korea accepts Mali as its vassal. (apparently because Korea is far more powerful & they have good relations)
Because Mali is at war with Russia...Korea declares war on its friend Russia! WTH!

This is quite frustrating...

 

[Nilmerf]

Mansa is one of the three leaders who are more eager than others to become vassals, so he probably asked Korea. Wang Kon then accepted, knowing that this was a good opportunity to help himself gain an edge on an otherwise more powerful Russia.

 

[kcbrett5]

The scenario: 575 AD (I'm russia)

Russia is at war with Mali.
Mali and Korea have good relations.(Pleased)
Russia and Korea have good relations. (Pleased)
Korea is above Russia on pwr, Russia above Mali on power.
Mali is about to be obliterated by my axes & cats.
Korea accepts Mali as its vassal. (apparently because Korea is far more powerful & they have good relations)
Because Mali is at war with Russia...Korea declares war on its friend Russia! WTH!

This is quite frustrating...

Indeed it is. I hate when the AI tries to win the game. I mean seriously, Korea teaming up with an ally they are pleased with to take down its biggest competitor of the moment? Why that is something a human would do. I expect more class from the AI. This needs to be fixed IMMEDIATELY! I refuse to play the game if my opponents are going to try and beat me using my own tactics.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Indeed it is. I hate when the AI tries to win the game. I mean seriously, Korea teaming up with an ally they are pleased with to take down its biggest competitor of the moment? Why that is something a human would do. I expect more class from the AI. This needs to be fixed IMMEDIATELY! I refuse to play the game if my opponents are going to try and beat me using my own tactics.

All the guys tell me what a crackup you are! I hope your kidding that is ! I love the vassal system and how weakend opponents will crawl to stronger powers for help. I've had Mansa crawl to me a couple times when we've had great (FRIENDLY) relations and he's getting messed up by another really powerful AI.

 

[douglas_21]

I don't have preoblems with the AI trying to win, I just think it should realize the consequences of getting a vassal who is at war with your friend. It just seems the AI was not realizing it had to declare war on me. (I just gave wang kon an almost-freebie tech to boost relations the previous turn!) Perhaps this was a backstab with a convienent opportunity.

 

[Crighton]

The real question was (and I assume it was) is whether or not it's Peaceful Vasalage or Capitulaion. My reading leads me to think it's a Peacefull, in which case ten turns out Mali can break the vassalage. Which makes it an almost pointless adventure for the Koreans, assuming Russian could hold it's own in the now expanded war.

I wish there was a permanant Vassalage option without having to be at war for the Permanant Capitulation option.

Question: I've never had Mali as my vassal before, if you can vassal him while he still has a decent empire can he be turned into your techwhore for the game?

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I don't have preoblems with the AI trying to win, I just think it should realize the consequences of getting a vassal who is at war with your friend. It just seems the AI was not realizing it had to declare war on me. (I just gave wang kon an almost-freebie tech to boost relations the previous turn!) Perhaps this was a backstab with a convienent opportunity.

Alexman (Firaxis lead designer) has stated elsewhere, that this is a known problem, and that in the patch, an AI civ will only accept a vassal that is already at war if it is prepared to go to war with the potential vassal's aggressor.

So in this case, after the patch, it should go something like:-

Mansa begs Korea to become vassal, Korea checks and says "No Mansa, we are great Friends with Russia, that's not going to happen"

If Russia and Korea were say only cautious, then yes, there is a good chance of Korea accepting Mali's vassalage and war occuring.

This is to my mind how it should be, atm it doesn't check as it should.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Crighton: If you capitulate him, he will most likely refuse to give you any techs. However, if you can get him to peacefully vassalize, you can more-than-likely get him to gift you a couple techs and trade nicely for others. However, I don't experience this b/c I almost always turn tech trading off. Sure it makes for a much slower game, but I hate how ALL the AI's end up having practically the same level of tech (unrealistic). Plus I hate having to gift good military techs to friendly civs to keep up relations if I plan on backstabbing them in the later game for a domination vic. Although it does make it harder to convince the AI to go to war without tech gifts.

DrewBledsoe: I have found that when a civ I am warring with vassalizes to a friend of mine, the war ends automatically and peace is called. Although this frustrates me (as I'm usually on the virge of taking a juicy border city), it's better than going to war with a long time ally.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Crighton: If you capitulate him, he will most likely refuse to give you any techs. However, if you can get him to peacefully vassalize, you can more-than-likely get him to gift you a couple techs and trade nicely for others. However, I don't experience this b/c I almost always turn tech trading off. Sure it makes for a much slower game, but I hate how ALL the AI's end up having practically the same level of tech (unrealistic). Plus I hate having to gift good military techs to friendly civs to keep up relations if I plan on backstabbing them in the later game for a domination vic. Although it does make it harder to convince the AI to go to war without tech gifts.

DrewBledsoe: I have found that when a civ I am warring with vassalizes to a friend of mine, the war ends automatically and peace is called. Although this frustrates me (as I'm usually on the virge of taking a juicy border city), it's better than going to war with a long time ally.

I'm only presuming from what he said, but I'm guessing that they won't even accept the vassal in these circumstances.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Okay, cool. I'd rather complete my little war and have him vassalize to me!

 

[douglas_21]

I wonder...should I reload? I think I can stand korea being at war w/me for 10 turns- it is quite far away from Russia.