AI?

Smokey McDope

Warlord
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Messages
134
I've been poking around for info about the ai but am coming up dry. Has it been discussed at all yet? I'd love to know if it will actually be able to play the game competently or if it's going to be another "lol that's hard, lets just let it cheat" kind of job.
 
While it's hard to make good AI, one should always strive towards making it better. Civ V AI can still be improved a lot without resorting to coding millions of variables/subconditions.
 
It's not realistic to expect human level AI but i would like to see the AI that at least doesn't feel incredibly dumb. Good design of AI goals and priorities could solve the problem of too much computing that would hurt turn times.
I would like an AI that don't suicide if there is nothing to gain from it, AI that understands terrain, AI that looks at odds when fighting and use tactics to position itself to get better odds in fights, AI that is merciless and ruthless if human is too weak, an AI that prioritizes goals that hurts opponent player the most ... just to create the feeling that your empire is at stake, not just dancing your turns to the end or until some good tech.
Somehow i feel that it can't possible be worse that civ 5 AI. I expect better AI, just how better, we will see.
 
They have discussed multi-thread A.I. and they have coded the game from scratch.
Hopefully the limited stackings and support units help AI in warfare too.
 
AIs just calculate, they don't really understand what other players are doing, and they don't learn, so they can't be creative. But if they play strategically (/tactically) sound even if robot-like, they could bring a nice smart challenge to the human player in a FFA context. That's what I would call a good AI, being sound towards their identified objectives and being able to recognized when these objectives should be shifted. They can't be creative but they can be coherent, even if they are not able to calculate all possibilities to play the best most efficient. There are still so many ways to fit that definition I guess.
In a 1v1 context or anything like that, a AI is not a good challenge I think (when there are too many possibilities to calculate). But in FFA, where everybody turns against each other in unpredictable directions, its tougher for 1 player in that game to consistently win the game. So if the AIs play strategically (and tactically) sound even if robotlike, in FFA it makes a interesting challenge for a human player to consistently come out on top of that. The better the AIs at being sound like that, the better the quality of the highest difficulty levels of the game, where you will be less fighting the "quantities" of the handicap and more the "qualities" of this specific game, I think.
For example if the AI plays stupid but the handicap is huge (as it has to be then for the game to be hard) you will be heavily fighting your food and production handicap by making the most efficient farming and production managements to catch up in number of population and army with other players so that you can survive or attack, and that's where most of your efforts have to go so that it's tough to do anything else. Then it is a matter of countering the stupid mistakes of the AI which is straightforward. They don't really know how to punish or counter your own decisions too so its more difficult to make sense of the qualities you are playing. If the AIs are sound the handicaps can be lowered and now you have more complex decisions to make to counter their plans and they can counter yours so now you can play on the terrain of strategic and tactical qualities as well instead of mostly quantities. Does that make sense? maybe I'm wrong lawl trying to theorize

Personally in past Civ games I found that I didn't like playing past a certain difficulty for this reason. As you go up in difficulty you have very very limited freedom as to what you can do to win, but if you stick to the lower difficulty levels its kinda easy to win. I think in Civ IV I enjoyed playing most at "king" difficulty level. One day I tried going for culture victory in "Emperor" I just read a few paragraphs about how to do it and easily got win on second try playing a very determined robotic kind of game I think that's the last time I played civilization lol. (only time I won in Emperor too cause playing a freestyle just didnt seem to work past king). Btw I'm rly a hardcore gamer I like high difficulty games and competitive games I just want it to be smart and involve skills rather than mostly knowledge and preferably a good balance between these. In civ 4 I'm not saying it takes no skill to win on immortal or deity I just dunno barely tried but it felt like the variety of course of events and choices that the game proposed seemed to break in those modes so that you kinda had to play a fixed game of maxed efficiency in the details. (only played vanilla) and kind of disliked how you couldn't compete at all in the early game in terms of rushing to certain techs or wonders so that there seemed to be very few options to start

I think this is partly a consequence of the AI playing stupid and the handicaps being really high.
 
You are right. High bonuses do not adequately simulate a better AI. It creates some frustrating situation that could be avoided by teaching the underlying AI better habits. A simple example is how the AI focuses early wonder because it is stupidly programmed to do so. When coupled wih some of the AI bonuses it makes these inaccessible to humans.
Bonuses are necessary for the challenge but the neutral AI should at least play soundly so that it is easier to control what the ai does when you give it some bonuses.

On the other jand the feeling you have of getting pigeonholed into some strategies is more a balance issue. Most of the time imbalances are displayed because of the difficulty forcing comparisons.
 
It's impossible to write AI playing the game like civilization more or less equal to human on modern hardware, unless you're ok with each turn taking weeks.

Some good reading to start with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_complexity_theory
https://jonshaferondesign.com/2012/09/10/the-recipe-for-good-ai/
EDIT: Forgot one important link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJcuQQ1eWWI

Have you played Vox Populi? Gazebo and Ilteroi are the living proof that you don't need anything crazy in terms of resources or money to achieve an excellent AI.

Oh, and they did it for free, and in their spare time.

Shame on FXS, I guess... :rolleyes:
 
One can't define "good AI" as it's a subjective term. But something that's challenging (as in, players themselves would label it challengeing) to 50% of the intended player base would be a start.
 
"A manned flight to Mars would take too many resources, therefore we aren't going to go to the moon".

Binkov is exactly correct, the AI can be improved in many aspects without even talking of "human like intelligence". This all or nothing talk is a fallacy.

At the very least, I'd like to see some of the AI cheats back loaded. As Acken hinted at, Civilization's tradition of front loading cheats makes the early game a bit... odd to put it kindly. Yet when it reaches end game, it loses steam and doesn't put up much of a fight. Tweaking the AI bonuses so that the overall AI experience is leveled out would go quite a ways to make the game overall more enjoyable.
 
That could be good indeed, the bonuses of AI starting low and then ramping up. If you have more starts available, it creates much more numerous possible ramifications for midgame too.

Hoping for a good balance and smart enough AI >.<
 
Ideally Ai challenge is the result of 3 things. Game balance so that the ai doesnt fall too often into noob traps. Ai improvements as the metagame develops. Ai bonuses for the challenge.

Also stopping ai abuses and bugs is good. Like the white peace bug of civ5 that wasnt fixed.
 
In civ 5 deity wasn't really that challenging due to all the exploitative things you could do to the AI. I hope that they make the AI smarter and don't tone back the AI bonuses (although I'm not against the bonuses being more late-game orientated), so that the top difficulty levels are highly challenging.

In civ V you could basically use any strategy and still win on Deity. I've won using ICS in BNW despite the science penalty. I'm not saying that there should only be one strategy to win on deity but that you shouldn't be able to beat a game on the highest difficulty level using a strategy that the game is designed around discouraging.
 
I did a piece on the potential AI of Civ VI a while back, and basically came to the conclusion that it's probably not going to be great. Not necessarily because of any lack of action on Firaxis' part (although possibly because of that), but more so because computers are kind of dumb. Something like a shooter it doesn't matter that much, because the enemies mainly just have to shoot at you and not get shot. There's certainly more to it than that, shooters do have AI tactics, but it's nothing like what a strategy game would have. Computers are just sophisticated machines, they can perform tasks really well but can't actually think or strategize like a human. Civ's AI probably could be better, maybe it will be in Civ VI, but by the time it's actually smart I hope we have some fail-safes for Skynet.
 
I don't expect much. I have yet to see any AI for any strategy game as open-ended as Civ that wasn't hopelessly exploitable and predictable. I'm sure Civ VI will be the same way.

But the designers can help themselves out by making design decisions that are AI-friendly. Civ V really shot itself in the foot with the new 1UPT system that put a ton of stress on the AI's tactical combat abilities. The AI was of course hopeless at handling its armies (what else could the designers have expected?) and that had deleterious effects on the whole game. If the AI could never really threaten you because it handled its armies so incompetently, then the game is less tense, diplomacy is less important, conquest is less satisfying, etc.

A further problem was that there was no really easy way to give bonuses to mask the AI's total incompetence. Yes, because of production bonuses the AI typically had more troops, but troops are useless if you don't know what to do with them. And the designers chose not to take drastic measures that would have made combat more difficult, but much less fair--for example, having AI troops get big combat bonuses against the player, or heal more, or move faster, etc. So the AI just gets steamrolled in combat.

On the other hand, for the empire-building side of the game, the bad AI is less of a big deal. If Civ has a really rich and interesting economic system that the AI can't make heads or tails of (as in Civ IV), that's no big deal--just give it enormous production and research boosts (that are invisible to the player and don't feel so unfair), and it will be perfectly competitive.

I doubt very much that Civ VI will have a decent combat AI. And, just as in Civ V, that might be the main thing that keeps it from becoming a truly great title.
 
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