Any way to make Deity less difficult? BTW - I think people fake beating Deity

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Some of my own notes towards the Deity-start:
1. re:CivLifeR. No. Entertaining, but no - for pure advice. I remember watching one of his videos where he said that "scout" is inferior choice to "slinger" as opener. I don't see it. The faster movement of a scout is critical on Deity.

2. re: Scouts. Finding the tribal goodie huts and "First Meets" on CityStates is so so critical. I'm usually Scout/Scout to open on Deity. If I happen to have a strong production/food capital, I may go Scout/Settler. (Advanced GamePlay can see people doing a HolySite or Builder early... but too wordy to get into those more advanced options). Every AI meet is +1 era score, finding a wonder +1 era score. Gotta explore fast & smoothly to get era score.

3. Early AI rush/war. Probably the one thing I'll disagree w/Oberin on is this. This is a VERY advanced technique. He lists all the info - he's right. It's just hard. I've been playing Deity for over a year and still don't feel like I have a good grasp on how to pull it off. On 'standard' speed - I don't see it as a very viable strategy for anything less than ELITE players. You will know when you are. If you are asking questions about Deity (I still do/am)... you are not elite. Probably only 1/30 to 1/50 games might I have a weak AI neighbor within range AND the production to ramp up an army to pull it off. Also - a lot of time you have to dedicate units to Barb camps, see below.

4. Barbarians. One of the MOST frustrating parts of Deity - for me - Barb spawns. You take your Warrior exploring 6 tiles to the East... your first scout goes 6 tiles to the West... and then you find out that there's a horse barb camp to the North and another to the South. Game.Over. Generally - one of my favourite 'luck based' elements of Deity game-starts is when there is a CityState near my capital. Wherever that city/state is... say 'West' (9oclock)... you say 'OK, Cahokia has got that area covered for Barbs' and you turn your Warrior/Scout to the NorthEast (2oclock) and SouthEast (4oclock). You move your warrior in a way around your capital (to 1oclock, 12oclock, 11oclock, then home) so you can return it... and your scout(s) head outbound.

These can be argued to tie together though.

I'm not particularly fond of civlifer, but like him (?) I also open slinger in most cases, occasionally warrior, before immediately beginning on a settler at pop 2 in my capital.
The reason for this is obviously because I like the flexibility of having an extra military unit in case of early war (which happens a lot), but also because I find scouts to be a somewhat risky opening, and you sort of highlight the risk with scout openers right here.

The problem (imo) with scout openers is that you are at the whim of RNG as to whether or not the scout pays off, especially in regards to goodie huts and first meets.
Some games that scout can net you 3 first meets, a relic and a builder which is fantastic and boosts your early game a lot, other times you get no huts and no first meets, which sucks a lot since you wasted valuable early production for essentially nothing.

The other problem is that you cannot reliably use a scout to actively hunt and clear barbarian camps, thats not how they are designed.
Which leads to the problem you describe, which is that you run the risk of getting overwhelmed by a barbarian invasion.
That is not an end by itself (barbarians cant raze your capital anyway), but it can be a major nuisance in case you have a trapped settler unable to move out, which can ruin your early game completely.

There is also another advantage of having two military units out (starting warrior + slinger/warrior built), and that is that you can get some decent good era score out of clearing camps.
Personally I almost never have that problem of a barbarian invasion, but then again I actively hunt barbarians in the very early game (the second they pop close'ish on the minimap, I move my warrior/slinger over), as I need to both clear camps and scout with the units (after barbarians are dead) if they are to pay off vs a scout.
Finally there's the added value of getting easy access to the Archery eureka (if you open Slinger), and faster and more consistent Bronze working and Military Tradition boosts (with any sort of military unit), which is very helpful in the event of early war.

There's imo definitely merit to opening scout first, but as a player that values consistency, military units just offer the safest and most consistent opener for me.
Sort of like playing a standard and safe French defence over a risky gambit, for those who catch the chess reference.

 

[Pengwin7]

Interesting reply.

There's a few things I can't be argued down on... and I don't play a world where Slinger over Scout makes any sense as an opening production unit. (unless it's UU, like Nubia)
Too much value in:
i) Huts
ii) CS first meets
iii) Other leader meets (especially with regard to the Diplo favor trading. Every leader you can work that diplo favor fully form before it closes & spikes... its worth it.*)
iv) NatWonder finds.
And... just running a scout through another AI's land to cover it for 'viewing' has a lot of down-road value if building one-off items like Wonders.

Talking numbers, if somebody was to crunch the terrain passed by Scout vs Slinger - I'd say it's more than the 1.5x of Scout(3) vs Slinger(2).
Slinger going thru forest, over hills, gross. Scout - can at least find that flat terrain beyond the forest/hill and go 2 tiles vs 1 for Slinger. Those sort of moves are often.

For people that war... OK... I get the slinger. Fine.
If you are laser-focused on military units and eventual war (*iff) OK - you are keeping everything close - or headed towards empire you want to take out.
I don't see how people are going to really meet 4+ AI in the ancient age if they are aren't sending out a scout. That really limits ability to hit a golden age.

If somebody is considering any form of peaceful game, just way more value in an opening Scout.
And for NOOBS, transferring into Deity - the war-game is brutal. Absolutely brutal.
I, personally, think this is where a lot of people trying to make this jump get frustrated. I did. (Fortunately, I play peaceful culture... so not doing units fits with my game).

Slingers are horrible units for 1-on-1 vs Barb Camps.
Two hits, dead - from a straight-up camp spearman (*conditional on terrain, obv - but it's still like "Holy cow, this unit is gone already!")
If a scout stumbles on two units out of the fog... there's a chance they can Fortify and get the hell out of there.
Slinger... No. Which - as you say - means you have to tandem your slinger with another unit.
So much early production towards clearing barb camps.


My new favourite way to build slingers... is to not.
If the barbs come from a non-covered direction and arrive at my capital, I'll let the warriors wear themselves thin... then round up 140g, buy slinger, one-shot - kill, Archery tech-boost.
And usually, great way to boost that unit as there is often 2-3 units to take out from the city if they are arriving!!!

[I've also started not improving tiles around my capital so there's nothing to pillage - though it does sometimes make plunking down a holy site a more strategic planning...]

 

[depner72]

Thank you for these pointers. But what is the advantage of starting a holy site so early in the game? I usually completely ignore faith. Best W

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Thank you for these pointers. But what is the advantage of starting a holy site so early in the game? I usually completely ignore faith. Best W

The holy sites are for (ab)using work ethic and crusade as fast as possible, which is a very strong and relatively consistent opener on deity.
You usually want to make sure to get an adjacency pantheon for the holy site asap, and plop down as many +4 adjacency holy sites (or better, ideally) as you can early on.
You need fast holy sites to secure a religion on deity, and once you get the religion, you recoup the production investments pretty fast with the increased production from work ethic (especially when the scripture card is unlocked for +100 holy site adjacency).

If you play aggressive as well (as I do), you get further benefit from having a religion through the Crusade belief, which lets you invade the enemy AI pretty consistently in the ancient/classical era, more or less "for free" (you only need like 4-6 units, as they can take care of themselves with Crusade) while you play peacefully behind it.
This opener is very strong, and flexible enough for nearly every victory condition on Deity.
It's main goal is to set up a strong snowball base early (getting high production from work ethic, and free AI cities through crusade), letting you choose freely how you want to progress from that point onwards.
If done successfully, the game is about as easy to play as emperor level after that, as you're essentially bridging the head start gap that the AI has on you on deity.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Interesting reply.

There's a few things I can't be argued down on... and I don't play a world where Slinger over Scout makes any sense as an opening production unit. (unless it's UU, like Nubia)
Too much value in:
i) Huts
ii) CS first meets
iii) Other leader meets (especially with regard to the Diplo favor trading. Every leader you can work that diplo favor fully form before it closes & spikes... its worth it.*)
iv) NatWonder finds.
And... just running a scout through another AI's land to cover it for 'viewing' has a lot of down-road value if building one-off items like Wonders.

It's completely fair to open scout if you tailor your opener around that, as you seem to do, especially when you know you are playing culturally since that allows you to meet other AI players sooner (to rack up early tourism and work on the relationship).

Personally I don't chase huts and first meets that hard (warriors and slingers can still do it, although not as well as a scout), mostly because I hate excessive RNG in the opening stage (I dont really restart games that much and often play with a random leader, and when playing with "what I get" I need consistency, not potential).
As for clearing barb camps, its true that slingers are not the best for that job (thats the warrior's job), but it can be done with a good tactical sense as long as the barbarian card is slotted (I obviously have no use for the Survey card anyway, since I almost never open scout).

The way I clear barbarian camps with a slinger is to use rough terrain to get "free" pot shots in (since the spearman will usually leave the camp to chase, thus losing his defencive bonuses), and especially fortifying on a forested hill (ideally close to a promotion) in order to have the spearman attack into me (5 base CS, double fortification for +6, double rough terrain for another +6, and +7 from the card gives 24 CS, which is about as strong on the defence as the spearman is attacking for with his 25).
A slinger can then outheal the damage that he deals to whittle him down, and if he runs he can actually kill the spearman as opposed to a scout that loses all those defencive combat bonuses while opening up for heavy counterdamage and usually getting killed for it.
Its obviously not ideal compared to a warrior (which is why I often open warrior instead), but its doable and better than the scout.
After that (or before that, until I run into a barb camp), I just use the slinger as a normal scout.
Again that's just up to preference, and I do enjoy having the option to upgrade him to an archer later on as I invade (or take out a CS), as its essentially a "free" unit (production wise) that is very essential to have when you're dealing with a timing attack (the sooner and harder you hit, the better).

 

[depner72]

The holy sites are for (ab)using work ethic and crusade as fast as possible, which is a very strong and relatively consistent opener on deity.
You usually want to make sure to get an adjacency pantheon for the holy site asap, and plop down as many +4 adjacency holy sites (or better, ideally) as you can early on.
You need fast holy sites to secure a religion on deity, and once you get the religion, you recoup the production investments pretty fast with the increased production from work ethic (especially when the scripture card is unlocked for +100 holy site adjacency).

If you play aggressive as well (as I do), you get further benefit from having a religion through the Crusade belief, which lets you invade the enemy AI pretty consistently in the ancient/classical era, more or less "for free" (you only need like 4-6 units, as they can take care of themselves with Crusade) while you play peacefully behind it.
This opener is very strong, and flexible enough for nearly every victory condition on Deity.
It's main goal is to set up a strong snowball base early (getting high production from work ethic, and free AI cities through crusade), letting you choose freely how you want to progress from that point onwards.
If done successfully, the game is about as easy to play as emperor level after that, as you're essentially bridging the head start gap that the AI has on you on deity.

So if I read you correctly, a holy site should actually be the first district, right?

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

So if I read you correctly, a holy site should actually be the first district, right?

Depends on what you want to do.
If you wanna play some sort of religious game, culture game or possibly domination game, a holy site might be the best first district you can get.
But that also depends on whether or not you can get high adjacency holy sites up.
I usually don't bother if its "just" a bunch of +0-3 adjacency holy sites, since that makes work ethic pretty weak.
You can obviously play without work ethic of course, but in that case you really gotta think things through on whether you wanna go down that route or not.
The better your holy sites can become in the early game (usually through pantheons, but also mountains/wonders), the more it pays off to invest into one with work ethic.

 

[depner72]

Depends on what you want to do.
If you wanna play some sort of religious game, culture game or possibly domination game, a holy site might be the best first district you can get.
But that also depends on whether or not you can get high adjacency holy sites up.
I usually don't bother if its "just" a bunch of +0-3 adjacency holy sites, since that makes work ethic pretty weak.
You can obviously play without work ethic of course, but in that case you really gotta think things through on whether you wanna go down that route or not.
The better your holy sites can become in the early game (usually through pantheons, but also mountains/wonders), the more it pays off to invest into one with work ethic.

Thank you for this info, but it just adds to the confusion. I find the early game the most stressful because of the high stakes attached to early decisions. If I only knew which decisions would pay off how…it would be great to have the equivalent of an AI pilot to guide decison making…

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Thank you for this info, but it just adds to the confusion. I find the early game the most stressful because of the high stakes attached to early decisions. If I only knew which decisions would pay off how…it would be great to have the equivalent of an AI pilot to guide decison making…

Practice a bit on a lower difficulty, it will show you very clearly what pays off and why.

Set up a game where you are guaranteed a pantheon of your choice and the right terrain (Russia, Mali), and pick dance of the aurora for Russia or desert folklore for Mali.
Then get the highest adjacency holy sites that you can, and when you get your religion pick work ethic.
Then try to compare how much your production this added to your cities, and how much faster you can now produce things before and after.
You can then also try to get scripture card (+100% holy site adjacency bonus), to double that production and faith bonus even further.

Using this on deity is a really popular way of playing the early game on deity, because the huge production gains lets you develop very quickly and start catching up to the AI sooner than you would be able to otherwise.

There are other ways to play too of course which do not involve holy sites and the work ethic belief.