amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Originally posted by animepornstar
why not learn something that has been proven to work in the real world instead, like brazilian jiu-jitsu?
Or a gun.
Aikido
- Thread starter SunTzu
- Start date
Or a gun.
Sun Tzu: I studied Aikido for a year in college, and I really enjoyed it; the only reason I stopped was that my thesis was taking up too much time. There are several reasons it appealed to me.
First, it is a primarily defensive art. The principle of aikido is to use the attacker's energy to your purpouses (primarily running them to the ground and neutralizing them).
Second, there is a great deal of the study of pain. You use different moves to elicit incredible amounts of pain and discomfort by pushing joints in specific directions. From this, you also learn how to fall and avoid being seriously injured.
Finally, Aikido stemmed from samurai swordfighting. If you ever watch two masters sparring, you can very easily imagine swords in their hands as they use these adjunctive moves (when they do not wish to kill their opponent).
So I say go for it. It does take a while to get used to it, and it's not at all your typical "practice kicking and punching" martial arts. If you don't like the philosophy, you can always try something more offensive, like Tae-Kwon-Do.
Some have mentioned streetfighting. The training in the dojo IS meant to be applicable outside. Just not after only a couple of years of training. Martial arts are studied over a lifetime.
First, it is a primarily defensive art. The principle of aikido is to use the attacker's energy to your purpouses (primarily running them to the ground and neutralizing them).
Second, there is a great deal of the study of pain. You use different moves to elicit incredible amounts of pain and discomfort by pushing joints in specific directions. From this, you also learn how to fall and avoid being seriously injured.
Finally, Aikido stemmed from samurai swordfighting. If you ever watch two masters sparring, you can very easily imagine swords in their hands as they use these adjunctive moves (when they do not wish to kill their opponent).
So I say go for it. It does take a while to get used to it, and it's not at all your typical "practice kicking and punching" martial arts. If you don't like the philosophy, you can always try something more offensive, like Tae-Kwon-Do.
Some have mentioned streetfighting. The training in the dojo IS meant to be applicable outside. Just not after only a couple of years of training. Martial arts are studied over a lifetime.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Because you think we're taught to wait for the enemy to get back on his feet before hitting him again ?
Or that we only practice one on one fights ?
The difference between real fight and dojo "fight" is purely mental. And that's the huge one. You can have all the technics of the world, if you don't have the mental you will get beaten.
But depending on the art, you DO learn to fight dirty.
A first dan (black belt) has got the BASICS. The first dan is the teaching of the basics, on which you can learn the rest of the art. That's true for all martial arts I know of.Originally posted by Hygro
Ah I see. Still, to tough it out to red is quite impressive.
I remember hearing about the varrying black levels in Tae Kwon-Do, and was quite surprised to find out how a lvel 1 blackbelt is nothing compared to the higher ups. Sounds expotential
Depend which martial art you talk about.Originally posted by wtiberon
I completely agree with this which is why I warn people about martial arts. Martial arts is not as effective as techniques like boxing or wrestling (this helps since alot of street fights turn into grabbing matches
And boxing is in fact quite ineffective in a fight. The good thing is that it's excellent for the mental, but on the technical side it's really lousy.
Exactly. That's the mental thing I talked about
/nitpicking
Aikido comes from Jujutsu, which is the art the samurais used when they had lost their sword on the battlefield and they tried to survive. Many movements are the same than in kenjutsu, because they just used the same basic universal movements they already used with the swords.
Recycling
superunknown
Fake Plastic Head
Originally posted by Akka
Because you think we're taught to wait for the enemy to get back on his feet before hitting him again ?
Or that we only practice one on one fights ?
The difference between real fight and dojo "fight" is purely mental. And that's the huge one. You can have all the technics of the world, if you don't have the mental you will get beaten.
But depending on the art, you DO learn to fight dirty.
Still, the dojo people aren't there to kick your ass. No matter how dirty you train, it is still just that: training. Its not real fighting. In a real fight they are out to hurt you. Thats the difference.
So it is a mental thing, sort of.
Its very effective against people hwo don't know how to fight, and just throw puches like madmen. Against martial arts its quite lousy, primarily because legs are longer than arms.
Originally posted by Akka
/nitpicking
Aikido comes from Jujutsu, which is the art the samurais used when they had lost their sword on the battlefield and they tried to survive. Many movements are the same than in kenjutsu, because they just used the same basic universal movements they already used with the swords.
Recycling
Aikido has nothing to do with samurai swordfighting. Kendo and Iaido are the modern descendents of samurai kenjutsu.
Aikido and Kendo/Iaido are two different philosophies. Aikido is passive/defensive. Kendo is offensive/aggressive.
Aikido and JuJutsu are connected though.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
I've seen this before and it is indeed the best fight online.
Narz
keeping it real
You want to see what a real martial artist looks like?
My cat Junior!
- Narz
My cat Junior!
- Narz
animepornstar
Deity
i agree with this but if you train full contact sparring you get a lot of basic mentality (still there is a risk that you get "stunned"), learn to move right, avoid mistakes, etc, etc.Originally posted by Akka
Because you think we're taught to wait for the enemy to get back on his feet before hitting him again ?
Or that we only practice one on one fights ?
The difference between real fight and dojo "fight" is purely mental. And that's the huge one. You can have all the technics of the world, if you don't have the mental you will get beaten.
But depending on the art, you DO learn to fight dirty.
kyokushin, my ma, has a really slow belt progress. brown belt takes at least three years. but on the other hand do you learn the basic very quickly. you get the almost all kicks you actually need (low roundhouse kick, front push kick) as white belt, plus some more difficult kicks are also introduced, and in the 7th kyo you are ready for free fighting kumite (sparring). you can start teaching the basic from green belt.
brazilian jiu jitsu has a even slower belt system. a legit black belt takes ten years, i think. but also there do they learn to effective very quickly.
muay thai has no belt system at all and i think they start sparring after three months.
boxing has better and more effective punching than any other martial art and the footwork of boxing is much better than in most martial arts. it's also great to combine with other arts. bruce lee said that if you train boxing and wrestling for one year you will defeat a karate black belt and the two best heavy weight fighters in pride do boxing and combined it with sambo or brazilian jiu jitsu. i wouldn't call it ineffective for fighting.
ever been hit by a low kick to the thigh or a punch to the liver? that hurts, i tell you.
yep, they are vulnerable against low kicks and takedowns, but don't try anything high before they've dropped their guard.
@narz, he seems to be good at yoga as well.
Kakashi
smile, because I hate you
i think that the most effective martial art of all out there has to be dim mak nothing but pressure points and joint locks who could beat that? if you know how to do it really good you can plant an extremely painful elbow lock out of a punch that will send them screaming or a knee lock off of a kick.there are even ways that you can k.o. or even kill people by squeesing a place on the arm or somewhere and squeesing real hard another.i want to practice it so bad but there ar'nt any places that teach it
Akka
Moody old mage.
No.
Much LESS effective in fact. But most can compensate by the simple fact they are practicing more, and more than all they do competition fights, that let us put their punches in "realistic" situations.
But the simple fact that you can only hit with closed fists (and not elbows, finghers) and that you're trained to avoid "low blow" decrease considerably the array of possibilities.
Footwork is great when you're in box. When you are allowed to grapple your opponent or to kick him in the legs, it's nothing useful.
I HIGHLY doubt it.
Perhaps he was talking about chinese boxing, though (which is more kung-fu than boxing).
Don't know about sambo, but when you practice jujutsu, there is nothing that you can learn in boxing about punch that you don't already know. Just practicing them more.and the two best heavy weight fighters in pride do boxing and combined it with sambo or brazilian jiu jitsu. i wouldn't call it ineffective for fighting.
The guard of boxing is quite ineffective in real fight : it's MUCH too short, as it's very close of the face. And as it's already said, they don't protect their legsyep, they are vulnerable against low kicks and takedowns, but don't try anything high before they've dropped their guard.
There is SEVERAL martial arts that use joint lock and pressure points.
In theory, yes, you can kill someone by pressuring some place on the arm.if you know how to do it really good you can plant an extremely painful elbow lock out of a punch that will send them screaming or a knee lock off of a kick.there are even ways that you can k.o. or even kill people by squeesing a place on the arm or somewhere and squeesing real hard another.i want to practice it so bad but there ar'nt any places that teach it
Though, the cold, hard fact, is that when you reach the level where you can do that, you are what a is called master, and by the time you know where to perfectly land a blow, which is all in all much more effective.
A single shuto (hit of the edge of the hand) on the temple can easily kill someone, and it's much easier to do than to reach a hard-to-detect, hard-to-touch pressure point, and that's something you are able to do by your very first dan.
Pressure points are great for masters, but for the usual mortal, there is much more efficient way to deal with opponents
Generally speaking, it doesn't matter which art one starts with. In the end, it is the individual and the quality of instruction that together, makes the difference. Debate as to which art is ultimately superior fails to take into consideration the individual's ability to adapt and improve upon basic theory. It also assumes that each of us is as intelligent/stupid, capable/incompetent as our instructor. The best combatants in the world have a wide range of experience, theories, and techniques to work with, and all are highly adaptable and focused.
I would advise taking whichever art appears more interesting to one's particular taste. If the poster is interested in Aikido, take it! In the end, a student will do best to branch off to any other artform that appear interesting rather than limit themselves to the knowledge and preferences of one particular instructor.
In general I'd have to agree with Akka. There is not any one art or combination of artforms that are superior. It is really the combination of the instructor and the student's abilities, and dedication.
I would advise taking whichever art appears more interesting to one's particular taste. If the poster is interested in Aikido, take it! In the end, a student will do best to branch off to any other artform that appear interesting rather than limit themselves to the knowledge and preferences of one particular instructor.
In general I'd have to agree with Akka. There is not any one art or combination of artforms that are superior. It is really the combination of the instructor and the student's abilities, and dedication.
animepornstar
Deity
why aren't practioners of other martial arts (except for muay thai) not using their strikes to compete in boxing then? it's because boxing, muay thai, kyokushin, san da/san shou and kickboxing have something other stand up martial arts don't have, full contact sparring and competing. if some kind of punch don't work, then you will notice and won't use it, but if it works then you keep it. if there where some kind of punch that where better than boxing punches, don't you think the boxers would use it?
on the other what prevents strikes from other arts from turning useless because they aren't used for real? i know for example that the roundhouse kick in shotokan karate is almost useless and can't be used in a fight.
there might be striking arts like "shaolin phoenix fist" where you use you fingers to strike against eyes and other weak spots, but are they effective? you can't sparr them well, it's very difficult to hit in the right spot and if you miss you might break your finger.
elbows to the head are only thai fighters using as far as i know. once again there might be other arts that use them, but they don't use them when they sparr so how can they use them well in a fight?
well, how many martial arts do actually have spawling or leg blocks?
i wish this this site worked, but it hasn't for a long time:
http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index.html
all i found left was this:
http://erwin.lousy.org/sz/budo/local/crane69/index6d.htm
that tripod site was made by a kung fu pracitioner living in east asia, i think it was malaysia. it described the history of the meetings between muay thai and kung fu. if i remember it correctly did muay thai win all meetings, often in the first round. there was even a picture from 1920-something when a thai fighter met a kung fu master from the southern shaolin tempel. the thai fighter stood in a classic muay thai stance while the shaolin monk held one of his hands behind his head as guard. guess who won that fight?
given that the muay thai punching and guard is close enough to boxing that they can even compete in boxing, do you think bruce meant western or chinese boxing?
why are the top bjj:ers cross training then? the guy i was talking about, nogueira, does boxing and most of the gracies are cross training in other arts. royce, for example, has done muay thai for seven years.
i think tae kwon do is the most popular art today, at least it's much larger than muay thai. why aren't there any tkd guys in ultimate fighting, pride or k-1 while there are so many mt guys, if the arts are equal and it's the students and the instructors that make the difference?
Akka
Moody old mage.
When I was talking about the ineffectiveness of boxing, I was talking about the standard english boxing (the one Cassius Clay practised).
I consider kickboxing, muay thai, tae kwon do and so on to be martial arts, not "boxing"
Still, I would like to remind you that you talk about competition, where there is set of rules and sometimes rounds. Martial arts are, at the basis, NOT made for competition.
A true competition between true martial artists, without rules at all, would mostly end up with someone severely wounded or dead each fight.
It's not really that they are "useless". It's just that they are useful in some situations that do not happen often.
Example : the ushiro-geri (a linear rear kick) is a kick that is nearly totally absent of any competition. Because you have to turn back from your opponent, then launch your kick. Not only this is dangerous, but it's awfully slow. Then is this kick useless ?
Not at all, but you have to use it in the situation where it's useful :
Like if you just sent a circular kick which missed, and then rather than trying to stop your movement, regain your balance and then attack again, you continue your rotation and strike. Or, even more simple, you just happen to be against two foes, and one is behind you - then it's a VERY effective kick.
There is dozens of hits, strikes, grapples and so on that are extremely specialized to one situation. It makes them rarely seen, but does not make them really useless.
Thrust me, they are VERY effective.
It's the third principle of Sen in my school, which can be summed up by "adding a segment". Hitting with the fingers add up to 10 cm to your strike, which can be a nasty surprise for the ennemy, especially if his eyes are on the way.
Yes, you have risks to hurt your own fingers. Like any technical movement, it has its strong sides and its weak sides, and you have to use your judgement to know when to use it and when to use something else.
Because elbows strikes are not very useful in sparring. But when you grapple your opponent and come in close quarters, knees and elbows are MUCH more useful than fists and feet.
Again, it's about using the good tech at the good moment in the good situations.
In a ground struggle, a high-kick isn't going to be very useful
Sorry, don't know what you mean with "spawling".
But the majority of martial arts use kicks, and kicking in the legs is extremely efficient ^^
These fights seems to happen on a small rings, with rounds and rules.
I could also point you that it's not always the whole kung-fu, but Sanshu kung-fu, which, as the author says, Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes.
I can assure you that many schools of kung-fu have not these kind of stupid limitations.
Chinese boxing I would say.
Don't forget that this kind of guard is good when your opponent only land blows on you, but that it's not adapted to an opponent that try to grapple you and bring you in very close fight, where grappling is more important than kicking.
I can see several reasons :
- to familiarize themselves with the technics of others, be it to know how to counter them or to keep open mind and use good techs from other arts.
- to emphasize some aspects of their arts. A muay thai artist will always have more experience in kicking and punching than a jujutsu artist. Not because one is superior to the other, but simply because one is specialized in kicking and punching. So, with the same experience, the muay thai artist will have spent more time practicing his strikes.
- because they like it
Perhaps they are not interested in ultimate fighting.
Especially considering that now ultimate fighting use rounds, which disqualify it as a "no-rules" fight.
There is probably a difference in mentality (less emphasis on competition ?), but I don't really know, as I never tried tae kwon do nor have it teached in my dojo.
What I know for certain is that a skilled artist in any martial art is able to destroy a unskilled artist in any other martial art.
Experience, skill, mental and personnal capacities are much more important than the art you practice to determine how good you are in a fight.
Absolutely!
It's not really that they are "useless". It's just that they are useful in some situations that do not happen often.
Example : the ushiro-geri (a linear rear kick) is a kick that is nearly totally absent of any competition. Because you have to turn back from your opponent, then launch your kick. Not only this is dangerous, but it's awfully slow. Then is this kick useless ?
Not at all, but you have to use it in the situation where it's useful
Including when someone trying to rob you says, "Turn around"
superunknown
Fake Plastic Head
Royce Gracie uses Graice JiuJitsu, same as his father. He doesn't use kicks or fists, only leglocks, armlocks and some strangling. Its a mix between wrestling and Judo. Its extremely effective apparently.
Royce has challenged Tyson to a fight for ten years now, but Tyson wont do it. I guess he is afraid to get beaten.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Gracie practices Brazilian Jujutsu, which is a version of jujutsu that emphasize on ground fight.
It DOES include kicks and punchs, but the main goal is enter in the guard of the opponent, bring him to ground, and then submit or destroy him.
If it looks a bit like judo, it's simply because judo comes from jujutsu, and so they share a lot locks, dislocations, strangling, pinning and so on.
Probably.
Tyson is more prone to beat women than previous ultimate fighting champions as it seems
Well... yes and no. If you want history/politics and details of TKD, I can elaborate further. Otherwise:
TKD (the popular TKD you refer to) is a sport - not a martial art. Specialists in this TKD train for olympic competition - it is an olympic sport. There are TONS of TKD black belts and masters - but take a look at their credentials and you'll find them to be black bets and masters of a sport named TKD. If UF, Pride or K-1 is what I think you're describing, I'd agree that these athletes probably don't have much of a chance.
Don't confuse them with martial artists of the art called TKD!
superunknown
Fake Plastic Head
Well, not that I want to bring you down or anything, but I've spoken to Royce when he was in Sweden, and what I wrote is what he told me. So I'll go with that.
Oh man, this needs some clearing up.
There are two major styles of the martial art TKD. There is the original ITF TKD wich is the way the founder Choi Hong Hi created.
Then there is WTH TKD wich is a way that doesn't use fists. The latter is the one introduced as a "sport" in the olympics. Its also the most popular form in the world.
I train ITF, the "real" way of TKD. This form is not a sport. Its not in the olympics. Its the original martial art created by Choi Hong Hi, taken from korean styles like Tae Kyon.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Ah well, I can't really compete against first-hand informations
I was certain that BJJ was only emphasizing on ground fight, not abandonning completely strikes.
I'll have to see if it's only Royce himself that doesn't use kicks and punches, or if it's the whole school.
superunknown
Fake Plastic Head
I just said Royce himself doesn't use kicks and punches. BJJ does as you say include them, but has more emphasis on ground fight. Royce uses his own form of BJJ.Originally posted by Akka
Ah well, I can't really compete against first-hand informations
I was certain that BJJ was only emphasizing on ground fight, not abandonning completely strikes.
I'll have to see if it's only Royce himself that doesn't use kicks and punches, or if it's the whole school.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Ah yes, I overlooked it, sorry ^^
Ok, all goes back to normal then ^^
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