Aikido

[animepornstar]

Originally posted by Akka

When I was talking about the ineffectiveness of boxing, I was talking about the standard english boxing (the one Cassius Clay practised).
I consider kickboxing, muay thai, tae kwon do and so on to be martial arts, not "boxing"

if muhammad ali punches were ineffective, why didn't any karate or kung fu expert challenge him under boxing rules? there would have been a lot of money to earn there.

Originally posted by Akka

Still, I would like to remind you that you talk about competition, where there is set of rules and sometimes rounds. Martial arts are, at the basis, NOT made for competition.

A true competition between true martial artists, without rules at all, would mostly end up with someone severely wounded or dead each fight.

i would say that learning a martial art without sparring full contact is like learning to swim without water.

Originally posted by Akka
It's not really that they are "useless". It's just that they are useful in some situations that do not happen often.
Example : the ushiro-geri (a linear rear kick) is a kick that is nearly totally absent of any competition. Because you have to turn back from your opponent, then launch your kick. Not only this is dangerous, but it's awfully slow. Then is this kick useless ?
Not at all, but you have to use it in the situation where it's useful :
Like if you just sent a circular kick which missed, and then rather than trying to stop your movement, regain your balance and then attack again, you continue your rotation and strike. Or, even more simple, you just happen to be against two foes, and one is behind you - then it's a VERY effective kick.
There is dozens of hits, strikes, grapples and so on that are extremely specialized to one situation. It makes them rarely seen, but does not make them really useless.

a kyokushin roundhouse:

a shotokan roundhouse:

a tae kwon do roundhouse:

a muay thai roundhouse:

as you maybe can see here are the kyokushin and muay thai kicks about hurting or knocking out the opponent, while the shotokan and the tkd are about getting points or showing control. perhaps they are not useless as they maybe can know some girl out, but they wouldn't hurt a trained person.

Originally posted by Akka
Thrust me, they are VERY effective.
It's the third principle of Sen in my school, which can be summed up by "adding a segment". Hitting with the fingers add up to 10 cm to your strike, which can be a nasty surprise for the ennemy, especially if his eyes are on the way.
Yes, you have risks to hurt your own fingers. Like any technical movement, it has its strong sides and its weak sides, and you have to use your judgement to know when to use it and when to use something else.

fingers in the eyes hurt, but once again how can you know how to perform them without hurting yourself if you haven't tried them while sparring?

Originally posted by Akka
Because elbows strikes are not very useful in sparring. But when you grapple your opponent and come in close quarters, knees and elbows are MUCH more useful than fists and feet.
Again, it's about using the good tech at the good moment in the good situations.
In a ground struggle, a high-kick isn't going to be very useful

anyone can use elbows while fighting, but once you get hit on your jaw you forget all the plans you've had for the fight and start acting from your instincts which you've got while sparring.

Originally posted by Akka
Sorry, don't know what you mean with "spawling".
But the majority of martial arts use kicks, and kicking in the legs is extremely efficient ^^

sprawling is a way to shoot you legs backwards to avoid a tackdown.

imho are kicks to the legs are the best kicks, but in how many martial arts teaches how to block those and how to condition your shins to make them hard enough to block? answer: the ones that allows them in sparring, kyokushin, muay thai, san da and kickboxing.

Originally posted by Akka
These fights seems to happen on a small rings, with rounds and rules.
I could also point you that it's not always the whole kung-fu, but Sanshu kung-fu, which, as the author says, Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes.
I can assure you that many schools of kung-fu have not these kind of stupid limitations.

if you had been able to see the whole site you see that it wasn't only sanshou that met muay thai. there were choy lay fut, wing chun and shaolin guys as well. the whole kung fu contains between 300 and 1000 styles but those mentioned are some of the most popular.

Originally posted by Akka
Chinese boxing I would say.
Don't forget that this kind of guard is good when your opponent only land blows on you, but that it's not adapted to an opponent that try to grapple you and bring you in very close fight, where grappling is more important than kicking.

you know the two pride fighters i mentioned earlier, the bjj guy and the sambo (a russian wrestling style) guy? they met each other in a title fight in last pride and the the sambo guy won by lying in the bjj guys guard and just poundig while avoiding being submitted. that is why boxing and wrestling is such a powerful mix.

Originally posted by Akka
I can see several reasons :
- to familiarize themselves with the technics of others, be it to know how to counter them or to keep open mind and use good techs from other arts.
- to emphasize some aspects of their arts. A muay thai artist will always have more experience in kicking and punching than a jujutsu artist. Not because one is superior to the other, but simply because one is specialized in kicking and punching. So, with the same experience, the muay thai artist will have spent more time practicing his strikes.
- because they like it

do you mean that bjj and muay thai has different stand up technics, but non of them is better than the other?

Originally posted by Akka
Perhaps they are not interested in ultimate fighting.
Especially considering that now ultimate fighting use rounds, which disqualify it as a "no-rules" fight.
There is probably a difference in mentality (less emphasis on competition ?), but I don't really know, as I never tried tae kwon do nor have it teached in my dojo.

sorry, i don't buy those explanations

Originally posted by Akka
What I know for certain is that a skilled artist in any martial art is able to destroy a unskilled artist in any other martial art.
Experience, skill, mental and personnal capacities are much more important than the art you practice to determine how good you are in a fight.

how do you get experience, skill and mental capacities without testing what you've learned in full contact sparring?

Originally posted by Akka
Well... yes and no. If you want history/politics and details of TKD, I can elaborate further. Otherwise:

TKD (the popular TKD you refer to) is a sport - not a martial art. Specialists in this TKD train for olympic competition - it is an olympic sport. There are TONS of TKD black belts and masters - but take a look at their credentials and you'll find them to be black bets and masters of a sport named TKD. If UF, Pride or K-1 is what I think you're describing, I'd agree that these athletes probably don't have much of a chance.

Don't confuse them with martial artists of the art called TKD!

that's right that tkd that hasn't been spoiled by the olympics stil exist in korea, but it's pretty small. however, the korean tkd team have gotten their ass whipped by the chinese sanda team and the thai muay thai team quite recently. unfortuntly don't i have any links about it that work.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by animepornstar
if muhammad ali punches were ineffective,

Don't twist my words.
I said : "And boxing is in fact quite ineffective in a fight. The good thing is that it's excellent for the mental, but on the technical side it's really lousy."
I never said that a good punch from Cassius Clay won't do any harm, I was talking about a whole fight.

why didn't any karate or kung fu expert challenge him under boxing rules? there would have been a lot of money to earn there.

Because (at the origines) karate or kung fu are not supposed to be practiced within a set or rules. That's the point I made when saying that boxing is not effective in a real fight : boxing is the best method under boxing rules, but not when there is no rules.

i would say that learning a martial art without sparring full contact is like learning to swim without water.

Full contacts allow to build mental, to feel how it is to land and receive blows, to get a better grasp on reality of fights and so on.
It's an absolute NECESSITY to have at least partial contacts from time to time when you learn a martial art.
But if we were practicing real fights with no rules at all between martial artists, it would be closer of a slaughter than a competition.
Not talking about people being half destroyed during the training, which would teach them perhaps faster, but force them to skip several lessons in a row, waiting for the bones to repair themselves

a kyokushin roundhouse:

a shotokan roundhouse:

a tae kwon do roundhouse:

a muay thai roundhouse:

as you maybe can see here are the kyokushin and muay thai kicks about hurting or knocking out the opponent, while the shotokan and the tkd are about getting points or showing control. perhaps they are not useless as they maybe can know some girl out, but they wouldn't hurt a trained person.

No.
It's just two forms of the same kick (mawashi-geri as we call it), that have not the same goal.
The large, powerful one (which is very well represented in the muay thai picture), is based on a lot of momentum, which is gained by a circular movement of the hips and the leg.
It's a very powerful kick, but it's rather slow (compared to others kicks made at the same level, a skilled practitionner can throw it in less time than you can punch him ^^). The movement is large, circular, and the goal is to hit THROUGH your opponent (you aim at the other side of his body). Not that you will really cut him in half, but the movement should be made like if it was the case

The other version is a less powerful, but much faster one. The goal is rather to shake, disturb or counter your opponent. It also comes very well when you are chaining strikes. Another advantage is that you keep a better balance.

fingers in the eyes hurt, but once again how can you know how to perform them without hurting yourself if you haven't tried them while sparring?

The movement is exactly the same as other punches, it's just that you put your fingers to add some lenght. Targetting eyes rather nose in case of a straight, linear strike, or opening the hand like to scratch in a case of a circular or reverse strike. The risk to hurt yourself is if either you miss your target, either you put your fingers in the eyes and hit the ocular bones (don't know the name, hope you understand what I mean). The first case is plain aiming, which can be learned with regular punches, and in the second case it means you have destroyed the eye of the guy, and he's about to suffer a LOT more than you, so the goal is reached.

It's absolutly forbidden to ever use these kind of strikes in any competition (that I know about), and extreme cautiousness is required when you practice them in training.

anyone can use elbows while fighting, but once you get hit on your jaw you forget all the plans you've had for the fight and start acting from your instincts which you've got while sparring.

Elbows strike are NOT vert useful at sparring distance. They are much more useful at close quarters distance. It's stupid to try to use elbows when there is 1,5 metres between you and your opponent. It's equally stupid to try a high kick in the face when you're fighting on the ground. It's not that either of these is useless, it's just that they are not used in the same situation.

sprawling is a way to shoot you legs backwards to avoid a tackdown.

imho are kicks to the legs are the best kicks, but in how many martial arts teaches how to block those and how to condition your shins to make them hard enough to block? answer: the ones that allows them in sparring, kyokushin, muay thai, san da and kickboxing.

You also use kicks and sprawling in several other martial arts. Hardening the shins to make them able to block is not mandatory (though useful), as you can also avoid them, absorb the power - not an easy thing to do - or counter them - especially the powerful and circular ones.

if you had been able to see the whole site you see that it wasn't only sanshou that met muay thai. there were choy lay fut, wing chun and shaolin guys as well. the whole kung fu contains between 300 and 1000 styles but those mentioned are some of the most popular.

Yes, but the point that is interesting me is : where the constests done in a ring with rules, or was it about free fight ?

you know the two pride fighters i mentioned earlier, the bjj guy and the sambo (a russian wrestling style) guy? they met each other in a title fight in last pride and the the sambo guy won by lying in the bjj guys guard and just poundig while avoiding being submitted. that is why boxing and wrestling is such a powerful mix.

Yup, but the principle of jujutsu is precisely to be a mix of wrestling and sparring, so I suppose that it reflect that whatever the art, it's the skill and experience that count.

do you mean that bjj and muay thai has different stand up technics, but non of them is better than the other?

I say that muay thai is specialized in sparring, while jujutsu is a broader art, so that at skill and experience level equals, the muay thai will usually win if the fight is restricted to sparring, because he spent more time in it.

sorry, i don't buy those explanations

They are not explanations, they are suppositions.
As I said, I don't know a lot about TKD.

how do you get experience, skill and mental capacities without testing what you've learned in full contact sparring?

You can get them (MUCH slowler, that is certain) by practicing semi-contact training and regular training.
Don't forget also that fight is not only sparring.
Full-contact is quite dangerous, and having a serious injury, which will prevent you to practice for several months or weeks, is not a good way to progress

 

[superunknown]

I'll post this once again:

"There are two major styles of the martial art TKD. There is the original ITF TKD wich is the way the founder Choi Hong Hi created.
Then there is WTH TKD wich is a way that doesn't use fists. The latter is the one introduced as a "sport" in the olympics. Its also the most popular form in the world.

I train ITF, the "real" way of TKD. This form is not a sport. Its not in the olympics. Its the original martial art created by Choi Hong Hi, taken from korean styles like Tae Kyon. It doesn't only exist in Korea, its spread across the world. ITF=International TKD Federation."

About the roundhouse pictures.
I can only speak for TKD, and the kick in that picture is not a roundhouse. It is a "half moon" kick against the head called dollyo chagi, and the leg is pulled back after the hit. Its pretty flashy, but useless in a fight.

The muay thai kick is indeed a roundhouse as the power continues through the opponent, wich the TKD kick doesn't. TKD has this type of kick too, and its very effective and fast.

 

[animepornstar]

Originally posted by Akka

Don't twist my words.
I said : "And boxing is in fact quite ineffective in a fight. The good thing is that it's excellent for the mental, but on the technical side it's really lousy."
I never said that a good punch from Cassius Clay won't do any harm, I was talking about a whole fight.

Because (at the origines) karate or kung fu are not supposed to be practiced within a set or rules. That's the point I made when saying that boxing is not effective in a real fight : boxing is the best method under boxing rules, but not when there is no rules.

i still don't get why boxing punches can't be used in a fight. it's simple punches that can be used in any fight and cause great damage. trading of punches in the range that is a bit to far for knees is something that often happens and then do the boxer always have the edge.

Originally posted by Akka
Full contacts allow to build mental, to feel how it is to land and receive blows, to get a better grasp on reality of fights and so on.
It's an absolute NECESSITY to have at least partial contacts from time to time when you learn a martial art.
But if we were practicing real fights with no rules at all between martial artists, it would be closer of a slaughter than a competition.
Not talking about people being half destroyed during the training, which would teach them perhaps faster, but force them to skip several lessons in a row, waiting for the bones to repair themselves

that's why you wear gloves and don't allow eye-gougig or biting while you make sure that you conditioning your body. false confident is something much more dangerous.

Originally posted by Akka
No.
It's just two forms of the same kick (mawashi-geri as we call it), that have not the same goal.
The large, powerful one (which is very well represented in the muay thai picture), is based on a lot of momentum, which is gained by a circular movement of the hips and the leg.
It's a very powerful kick, but it's rather slow (compared to others kicks made at the same level, a skilled practitionner can throw it in less time than you can punch him ^^). The movement is large, circular, and the goal is to hit THROUGH your opponent (you aim at the other side of his body). Not that you will really cut him in half, but the movement should be made like if it was the case

The other version is a less powerful, but much faster one. The goal is rather to shake, disturb or counter your opponent. It also comes very well when you are chaining strikes. Another advantage is that you keep a better balance.

you are missing one of the most important rules of fighting:

"Keep everything simple, don't try anything crazy and all your strikes must be hard! NOTHING WEAK, no jabs or weak attacks".

i copied that expression from a site about bas rutten, a former ufc heavyweight champion who has managed to beat up five bouncers at the same time when he was in sweden and has even taken nunchucks to the head in fights.

Originally posted by Akka
The movement is exactly the same as other punches, it's just that you put your fingers to add some lenght. Targetting eyes rather nose in case of a straight, linear strike, or opening the hand like to scratch in a case of a circular or reverse strike. The risk to hurt yourself is if either you miss your target, either you put your fingers in the eyes and hit the ocular bones (don't know the name, hope you understand what I mean). The first case is plain aiming, which can be learned with regular punches, and in the second case it means you have destroyed the eye of the guy, and he's about to suffer a LOT more than you, so the goal is reached.

It's absolutly forbidden to ever use these kind of strikes in any competition (that I know about), and extreme cautiousness is required when you practice them in training.

but if you try these strikes you must be sure that the opponent won't move his head or redirect the strike with his guard, right?

Originally posted by Akka
Elbows strike are NOT vert useful at sparring distance. They are much more useful at close quarters distance. It's stupid to try to use elbows when there is 1,5 metres between you and your opponent. It's equally stupid to try a high kick in the face when you're fighting on the ground. It's not that either of these is useless, it's just that they are not used in the same situation.

in muay thai they use them for sure. it's often you get in distance to use elbows before you get in the grappling/clinching distance.

stomp kicks in the face are great at the ground, when you are kicking from your guard. guys from brazilian jiu-jitsu are often using them.

Originally posted by Akka
You also use kicks and sprawling in several other martial arts. Hardening the shins to make them able to block is not mandatory (though useful), as you can also avoid them, absorb the power - not an easy thing to do - or counter them - especially the powerful and circular ones.

coutering and avoiding them are possible, but low kicks do often come in combinations. you block a punch or two and then it comes faster than you think. they might look easy to do something against, but once you are hit it will get harder and harder.

to be able to do anything against them you have to sparr a lot. you can use shin guards if your are afraid to break anything, but facing real kicks are the only way to prepare for them and if you are not prepared for them then they will bring you down.

Originally posted by Akka
Yes, but the point that is interesting me is : where the constests done in a ring with rules, or was it about free fight ?

the early fights were outside on the ground and i don't think they had any rules. the thai fighters used gloves while the kung fu fighters fought bareknuckle. the later fights were rings with with gloves and rounds. i'm not sure about the rules but if anything else than groundfighting and kicks in the nuts was forbidden it would have be a disadvantage for muay thai. fights in thailand, like when five kung fu masters were knocked out in the first rounds in bangkok 1974, were probably under muay thai rules.

Originally posted by Akka
Yup, but the principle of jujutsu is precisely to be a mix of wrestling and sparring, so I suppose that it reflect that whatever the art, it's the skill and experience that count.

my point is still that wrestling and western boxing is an effective combination because it can defeat the probably best brazilian jiu-jitsu guy. do you agree with my point?

Originally posted by Akka
I say that muay thai is specialized in sparring, while jujutsu is a broader art, so that at skill and experience level equals, the muay thai will usually win if the fight is restricted to sparring, because he spent more time in it.

muay thai would win in stand up because it has better punches and kicks. if a guy who had been training muay thai for six months would meet a pure black belt jiu-jitsuka in stand up, i would put my money on the muay thai guy.

Originally posted by Akka
You can get them (MUCH slowler, that is certain) by practicing semi-contact training and regular training.
Don't forget also that fight is not only sparring.
Full-contact is quite dangerous, and having a serious injury, which will prevent you to practice for several months or weeks, is not a good way to progress

at least in sweden do all martial arts have lower rates of injuries than ice hockey, soccer and horseback riding and even semi-contact can hurt you. superunknown wrote here recently that he had broken his shin when his kick was accidentally blocked by an elbow. if you train full-contact you will be prepared for full-contact at least.

@superunknown. the style i was talking about was apparently WTH. here is what reported from a korean mix martial art event recently where a WTH tkd master who had learned tkd in the 60s and the 70s fought:

"The biggest upset yet was brought up by a TKD master. A TKD master, who is nearly 50 (the oldest among all the competitors), completely schooled his opponent with his TKD techniques alone. His much younger opponent is a formal special force, with full-contact kickboxing, and boxing experience. However, the 50 yrs old TKD master dominated the match with devastating combination of kicks. He outpowered, not only out speeded, younger opponent. My friend described his kick as "aesthetic punishment," that it was too fast to shoot a picture (although his all other pictures sucked anyways). His opponent was crippled after he checked one of TKD master's kick; showing that even in terms of power he was outmatched. The old man left the ring with the biggest applause behind, without even breaking a sweat."

quite impressive, isn't it? here is a picture of him:

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by animepornstar
i still don't get why boxing punches can't be used in a fight. it's simple punches that can be used in any fight and cause great damage.

They are. Again, what I'm saying is that boxing is lousy for real fight, not that it has bad punches. But it's made to be used under a certain set of rules, without grappling, kicking, with only hit over the belt permitted and so on.

trading of punches in the range that is a bit to far for knees is something that often happens and then do the boxer always have the edge.

Most martial arts use punches and kicks, so the boxer has no other advantages that the fact he only worked his punches while others had to work more generally.

that's why you wear gloves and don't allow eye-gougig or biting while you make sure that you conditioning your body.

That's what I call "partial-contact".

false confident is something much more dangerous.

Totally agree.

you are missing one of the most important rules of fighting:

"Keep everything simple, don't try anything crazy and all your strikes must be hard! NOTHING WEAK, no jabs or weak attacks".

i copied that expression from a site about bas rutten, a former ufc heavyweight champion who has managed to beat up five bouncers at the same time when he was in sweden and has even taken nunchucks to the head in fights.

Let's say I disagree with him on the "no jabs or weak attacks".
If he can take real nunchuks hits in the face and still be able to fight effectively, then more power to him, but I'm not able to do that myself, and I'm a small frame, so I'd rather go for something fast and less powerful. Though, I fully agree with the "don't try anything crazy".

but if you try these strikes you must be sure that the opponent won't move his head or redirect the strike with his guard, right?

Every blow you give is an attempt to hit your foe without him redirecting or avoiding the strike. There is some attacks that are more dangerous than others (for you or for him). As I already said, you have to use your judgement and personnal preferences to know when using it.

in muay thai they use them for sure. it's often you get in distance to use elbows before you get in the grappling/clinching distance.

stomp kicks in the face are great at the ground, when you are kicking from your guard. guys from brazilian jiu-jitsu are often using them.

I was talking about high kicks when you are yourself on the ground

coutering and avoiding them are possible, but low kicks do often come in combinations. you block a punch or two and then it comes faster than you think. they might look easy to do something against, but once you are hit it will get harder and harder.

I know. I've not at a high level, but I do practice
Low kicks are a pain in the ass to just see, not even speaking about avoiding them.

to be able to do anything against them you have to sparr a lot. you can use shin guards if your are afraid to break anything, but facing real kicks are the only way to prepare for them and if you are not prepared for them then they will bring you down.

I know, but even without sparring you still can learn how to deal with them (much more slowly, but progress is here anyway).

the early fights were outside on the ground and i don't think they had any rules. the thai fighters used gloves while the kung fu fighters fought bareknuckle. the later fights were rings with with gloves and rounds. i'm not sure about the rules but if anything else than groundfighting and kicks in the nuts was forbidden it would have be a disadvantage for muay thai. fights in thailand, like when five kung fu masters were knocked out in the first rounds in bangkok 1974, were probably under muay thai rules.

Doh, remove me the possibility to hit in the nuts and the groundfighting, and I'll lose 50 to 75 % of my possibilities. Rules are great to avoid injuries, but they prevent many dirty movements that are extremely useful in fight.

my point is still that wrestling and western boxing is an effective combination because it can defeat the probably best brazilian jiu-jitsu guy. do you agree with my point?

Not at all.

muay thai would win in stand up because it has better punches and kicks. if a guy who had been training muay thai for six months would meet a pure black belt jiu-jitsuka in stand up, i would put my money on the muay thai guy.

A guy who practised six month against a true black belt ? And he would win ? Are you joking or do you believe there is some sort of magical power in Muay Thai that will metamorphose anyone into a specialist in half a year ?

at least in sweden do all martial arts have lower rates of injuries than ice hockey, soccer and horseback riding and even semi-contact can hurt you. superunknown wrote here recently that he had broken his shin when his kick was accidentally blocked by an elbow. if you train full-contact you will be prepared for full-contact at least.

Martial arts have, overall, a very low level of injuries. Because people KNOW they are doing things potentially dangerous and then they take the good precautions. For full-contact, I will say again what I say earlier : you learn faster, but the risk of injuries rise. And I can add that there is several strikes you can't use in full-contact because they WILL injure badly the opponent.

 

[animepornstar]

Originally posted by Akka

They are. Again, what I'm saying is that boxing is lousy for real fight, not that it has bad punches. But it's made to be used under a certain set of rules, without grappling, kicking, with only hit over the belt permitted and so on.

yes, i know that they are made to be used under a ca certain set of rules, but can you explain why a karate, kung fu or jiu-jitsu punch would work better in a real fight?

Originally posted by Akka

Most martial arts use punches and kicks, so the boxer has no other advantages that the fact he only worked his punches while others had to work more generally.

the boxer has all punches he needs, the punching techniques are created through trial and error, he has often used his techniques against an opponent and he has also had the techniques used against him. no other art can compete with boxing here.

Originally posted by Akka

Let's say I disagree with him on the "no jabs or weak attacks".
If he can take real nunchuks hits in the face and still be able to fight effectively, then more power to him, but I'm not able to do that myself, and I'm a small frame, so I'd rather go for something fast and less powerful. Though, I fully agree with the "don't try anything crazy".

why would weak attacks work for a small person when they don't work for big mixed martial art fighters?

Originally posted by Akka

I know, but even without sparring you still can learn how to deal with them (much more slowly, but progress is here anyway).

where do you get those reflexes from?

Originally posted by Akka
Doh, remove me the possibility to hit in the nuts and the groundfighting, and I'll lose 50 to 75 % of my possibilities. Rules are great to avoid injuries, but they prevent many dirty movements that are extremely useful in fight.

first of all, we were talking about western and chinese boxing.

kung fu don't have groundfighting.

dirty tricks like going for the throat, eyes or nuts works well against inexperienced fighters, but this was top thai fighters we were talking about.

i don't think kung fu has any super nut kicks.

Originally posted by Akka
Not at all.

ground and pound is one of the oldest ways to fight and when even a bjj black belt is beaten that way, why don't you think it's effective?

Originally posted by Akka
A guy who practised six month against a true black belt ? And he would win ? Are you joking or do you believe there is some sort of magical power in Muay Thai that will metamorphose anyone into a specialist in half a year ?

he has punching, kneeing, lowkicks and maybe also clinching and have sparred for about three month. muay thai don't have any magic power, but it has been created through trail and error in the ring for centuries, not against samurais at the battlefield.

Originally posted by Akka
Martial arts have, overall, a very low level of injuries. Because people KNOW they are doing things potentially dangerous and then they take the good precautions. For full-contact, I will say again what I say earlier : you learn faster, but the risk of injuries rise. And I can add that there is several strikes you can't use in full-contact because they WILL injure badly the opponent.

give me some examples of strikes that are too dangerous for the ring, other than the finger strike. do also explain how you can know that a technique (not necessarily one of the strikes that are too dangerous) works, and when and how to use it, in a fight if you never really tried it while training.

 

[Akka]

(is it just me, or are we the only two left ranting on this thread ? )

yes, i know that they are made to be used under a ca certain set of rules, but can you explain why a karate, kung fu or jiu-jitsu punch would work better in a real fight?

the boxer has all punches he needs, the punching techniques are created through trial and error, he has often used his techniques against an opponent and he has also had the techniques used against him. no other art can compete with boxing here.

They aren't better or worse, they are the same. All the punches in boxing are also used in many martial arts. You persist not reading what I write : I don't say the PUNCHES are weaker, I say that BOXING is lousy for a real, no-rules fight.

why would weak attacks work for a small person when they don't work for big mixed martial art fighters?

I'm light and fast. I'm naturally built for quick hits. I can deal big blows, but it's more difficult for me to do so because I lack mass and my muscles are more on the fast side than on the powerful side.
So rather than using things that would go against how I'm built, I'd rather use the style that fit my frame. Simple as that.

where do you get those reflexes from?

Practicing. It's not because we don't do full-contact sparring often that we never practice sparring at all.
And there is much more than sparring in a fight. Avoiding, engluing, are a different style but also efficient.

first of all, we were talking about western and chinese boxing.

kung fu don't have groundfighting.

dirty tricks like going for the throat, eyes or nuts works well against inexperienced fighters, but this was top thai fighters we were talking about.

i don't think kung fu has any super nut kicks.

Don't know, I don't practice kung-fu. I just wished to illustrate that some rules can take away most of the fight capacities of someone if they are trained to fight dirty.

ground and pound is one of the oldest ways to fight and when even a bjj black belt is beaten that way, why don't you think it's effective?

Aren't you reading what I write ?
Jujustu IS ABOUT ground and pound. And it's not because one artist is beaten that the whole art is useless, or all the arts would be.

he has punching, kneeing, lowkicks and maybe also clinching and have sparred for about three month. muay thai don't have any magic power, but it has been created through trail and error in the ring for centuries, not against samurais at the battlefield.

Well, if you think that, with the same intensity of practice and the same skill, anyone can, in six month, becomes more powerful than any other in three to four years, just because he practices another art, I just have to say : come back on Earth.

give me some examples of strikes that are too dangerous for the ring, other than the finger strike. do also explain how you can know that a technique (not necessarily one of the strikes that are too dangerous) works, and when and how to use it, in a fight if you never really tried it while training.

Every strikes on vital points (groin, throat, eyes, temple...).
Every dislocations.
That's about a third to a half of possible moves in certain martial arts.
We know that they work because people used them for centuries and came back alive to teach them, so they probably are not that lousey
And you can perfectly learn a strike without necessarily landing the blow full force. It's much slower to learn, but you learn anyway.

 

[superunknown]

Originally posted by Akka
(is it just me, or are we the only two left ranting on this thread ? )

Don't worry, I'm still here. Though I'm trying not to get killed in the cross-fire between you guys.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by superunknown

Don't worry, I'm still here. Though I'm trying not to get killed in the cross-fire between you guys.

Hey, it's still an exchange of thoughts, we haven't reached the stage where it's an exchange of blows

As you practice a martial art, you could share your point of view on the subject too

 

[superunknown]

Originally posted by Akka

Hey, it's still an exchange of thoughts, we haven't reached the stage where it's an exchange of blows

As you practice a martial art, you could share your point of view on the subject too

Well, let me know when you start getting it on..I'll be the referee.
No seriously, I like to contribute to the discussion, but I don't seem to have the stomach for those extremely long answers with quote upon quote.

But I'll be checking in from time to time leaving my opinion on things that I believe to have knowledge about.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by superunknown
Well, let me know when you start getting it on..I'll be the referee.

No need, it will be a no rule fight, the victor will be the one who survive

No seriously, I like to contribute to the discussion, but I don't seem to have the stomach for those extremely long answers with quote upon quote.

You don't need to answer to ALL quotes, just the one that you feel you can add a precision

 

[Yoda Power]

tsk tsk you are all forgetting the ultimate fighting art, Kendo!

ahh, now i feel much better..

 

[Zcylen]

personally, I dont like Ai ki do, but I admit its very helpful.
right now Im in a karate doujo

btw Sun Tzu ai ki do means : the art of the armony of the mind

 

[superunknown]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
tsk tsk you are all forgetting the ultimate fighting art, Kendo!

Well, I practice Kendo too, and I have to admit its pretty cool.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
tsk tsk you are all forgetting the ultimate fighting art, Kendo!

Nah, weapons are for sissy

/me runs before the flames start to rage.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Akka

Nah, weapons are for sissy

/me runs before the flames start to rage.

no weapons are for people who are smart enough to use them instead of their hands and feets.

 

[superunknown]

Originally posted by Akka

Nah, weapons are for sissy

Just tell that to the samurai. No, wait... they're all dead. Hm... to bad.

Originally posted by Akka

/me runs before the flames start to rage.

You can run, but you can't hide forever. Me and Yoda will find you and wup your ass with our katanas.
Isn't that right, Yoda?

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by superunknown
Isn't that right, Yoda?

Damn right!

 

[Akka]

You mean I'll have to become a super-sissy and practice gun firing to protect myself ?

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Akka
You mean I'll have to become a super-sissy and practice gun firing to protect myself ?

i dont train(thats spelled wrong, isn´t it?) Kendo to protect myself, and you cant run around with a gun.

edit-well yes you can, but it would be illegal.