ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[Shocka]

I'm just lurking and kind of a noob but wouldn't the building road process be affected if there are barbs around? That would be a major set back.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I haven't seen any compelling arguments in favor of the SE site.

I haven't either, but here's mine ... Let's look at the long term development of each proposed site.

After resource improvements, north of the horses has 26 food (non-irrigated corn) for 18 tiles. There's enough food for 13 people before stagnation. For production you'll get 4 from the horses, 3 from the marble, plus 1 for any other plains tile you work. That's about 16 hammers per turn at 13 population. You might have 2 cottages on the grasslands and up to 8 on the plains.

After resource improvements, southeast of the horses has 28 food for 16 tiles. There's enough food for 14 people before stagnation. For production you'll get 4 from the horses, 3 from the hill, plus 1 for any other plains tile you work. That's about 10 hammers per turn at 14 population. You might have 3 cottages on the grasslands and up to 3 on the plains plus 4 coast tiles and a silk plantation.

Note that I've deliberately ignored the option of farming the plains, because all that really does is get you 1 hammer from the tile.

In summary, both cities kind of suck. N has more hammers, commerce is about equal depending on how much you count for a cottage (N probably grows into higher commerce later). N gets you marble (nice!), SE gets you a coastal city, lower maintenance, and faster connection of the horses.

The biggest advantage to SE, IMHO, is that it leaves you better opportunities for the subsequent cities. Again, both of these cities will suck, but N sucks and leaves both the fish and the silk unused (or awkwardly used). SE, on the other hand, sucks but uses the silk and leaves a nice area to pick up the fish, corn, and marble later.

 

[slaze]

This doesn't really answer the question. First of all I disagree that quick horse connection is the sole function of city 2. It's the primary function, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to get additional use from the city.

I think a horse connection and getting units out is the sole function of city 2, at least for now. First you work your reasources and then the plains forests, leaving you flexibility to make changes later. It is a marginal city, but we'll have capitals in our hands soon. Later on, build farms and workshops and why not the HE.

Allright, I thought about it some more. You know, the land does look pretty defensible. Fogbusted right, Qin's to the left. I bet you could chop a monument out pretty quick... Screw it, settle on the desert. You'll get your paradise city with the food to work merchants to pay for all this madness, ha ha...

 

[Welnic]

...
The first worker can start with the pig pasture which will speed the second worker build time considerably. The two workers can then team up to build the corn farm and then build the road. With the corn farm and pig pasture both being worked while building the settler it should finish quickly (although it doesn't make use of the Imperialistic bonus ). With the road finished by the time the settler is done the settler can get to the site quickly and the workers can immediately start on the horse pasture.
...

If you have only good food tiles available for building a settler, you can still get the bonus by whipping. If you do that then you do want to build workers first so that the city will grow back after whipping.

 

[Validator]

If you have only good food tiles available for building a settler, you can still get the bonus by whipping.

That's true, however by my math Sisiutil will not be finishing BW until around the time the settler finishes, so there's really no way to speed it much by whipping.

 

[Validator]

In summary, both cities kind of suck.

That's the one point I think we can all agree on.

To my thinking which of these sites has slightly better long term potential is insignificant. To put it bluntly, if Sisiutil doesn't have a good number of much better cities in his empire by the time we get to "long term" he's done something very wrong.

I think the short and medium term potential is what's significant. The two sites seem to have about the same short term production potential (to size 3). But the N site has enough food to grow to size 6 while working 3 additional plains forest tiles while the SE site can't grow past size 3 unless it doesn't work it's best production tiles. Even if the SE site temporarily stops working the horse and mine so that it grows to size 6 it can't match the N site's production (15 vs. 11 although it would generate a couple more commerce).

There is a maintenance saving with the SE site to be considered, but the N site gains marble which I suppose could be sold to an AI if it's not needed (although that can't happen until Currency).

Silk really isn't a great tile to work, so if it doesn't end up in a city's fat cross I don't see a problem. Persepolis' next border expansion will claim the silk tile, so it can still be hooked up for the happiness bonus once Calendar is researched.

The SE site does allow a couple of other cities to be built in the north, but the real question is whether Sisiutil is going to make the effort to found them? If his primary expansion is going to involve taking cities from Qin how many cities can he afford to found in the north? If he doesn't found them soon then Genghis probably will. Some might say that would be a good thing as Sisiutil can then take them from Genghis after he's done with Qin. But is there a danger that Genghis could become too strong? Remember that while Immortals are strong early, they're no match for Keshiks.

 

[KMadCandy]

To my thinking which of these sites has slightly better long term potential is insignificant. To put it bluntly, if Sisiutil doesn't have a good number of much better cities in his empire by the time we get to "long term" he's done something very wrong.

I think the short and medium term potential is what's significant.

i agree and that's saying a lot. i love beautiful big cities, hubby says i obsess over them. i plot out my dot maps very carefully with an eye to the future.

but this is cyrus, and those are horses. we all settle fishing villages later in the game for seafood or to fill up coastal space to block the AI, or just to get the coastal tiles since the commerce lets the city pay for itself. well, think of this as a fishing village; the difference is, it's a really really early fishing village, and we're fishing for ponies . it'll pay for itself many times over with the plunder and the cities the ponies get us. it doesn't have to be one of the keystone cities of our empire in 1100 AD or whenever. it has a purpose for now, and we'll take what we can get, because a city that gets us ponies, even if it is a blech city, will get us many many benefits.

i'm way too tired atm to pick out which of the particular blech tiles is my favorite option tho *giggle*. i'm just saying that even i am not all that disappointed with how the city would look in 2050, and that is not something you'd hear me say every day. pick one, build some immortals, bash some heads, profit

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I guess I would say if we're founding a 3rd city, then I'd be in favor of SE. If the plan is 2 cities then fight, then N is probably significantly better due to the extremely weak production capability of SE.

SE is going to have virtually no production. The only way you get any hammers beyond the one from the city tile is to work a 1 food tile. Your growth is at best 2 surplus food, so even Slavery isn't going to be very efficient.

 

[commofdoom]

I think the short and medium term potential is what's significant. The two sites seem to have about the same short term production potential (to size 3). But the N site has enough food to grow to size 6 while working 3 additional plains forest tiles while the SE site can't grow past size 3 unless it doesn't work it's best production tiles. Even if the SE site temporarily stops working the horse and mine so that it grows to size 6 it can't match the N site's production (15 vs. 11 although it would generate a couple more commerce).

The SE site does allow a couple of other cities to be built in the north, but the real question is whether Sisiutil is going to make the effort to found them? If his primary expansion is going to involve taking cities from Qin how many cities can he afford to found in the north? If he doesn't found them soon then Genghis probably will. Some might say that would be a good thing as Sisiutil can then take them from Genghis after he's done with Qin. But is there a danger that Genghis could become too strong? Remember that while Immortals are strong early, they're no match for Keshiks.

These two points are compelling enough to change me to the North of the horses crowd. There is a slim chance he'll be able to found a northern city and even less of a chance that it would be a good idea. Maximal usage of our UU should be the priority for now.

 

[gallego]

I'm just lurking and kind of a noob but wouldn't the building road process be affected if there are barbs around? That would be a major set back.

With raging barbarians that can often be a problem. That isn't the case here, and there isn't a lot unexplored land so it shouldn't be a problem. It's definitely a concern though, as in the last ALC game.

 

[Sisiutil]

You were initially in favor of the N site but seem to have switched. What changed your mind?

I think it was a case of my wanting to explore a possible city site that I had not, at first, considered, mainly because of the lack of a decent food resource. I like the ALCs to be innovative, so I wanted to further discuss the idea of founding a city with no food surplus. The further debate, especially between yourself and Dr EJ, has been most enlightening and beneficial. My hats off to you both!

Even so, I'm not convinced of the value of the 1 SE site and will likely found the city 1 N of the horses. There are two main reasons. First, I never like to found a city if it doesn't have a surplus food tile, even if I have to settle for a single irrigated flood plain. Second, marble. Sorry, but it's the builder in me. Marble is just too good to pass up and gives me a serious shot at what you all know is my favourite wonder, the Great Library, even with all the warring we're planning on doing.

I'm just lurking and kind of a noob but wouldn't the building road process be affected if there are barbs around? That would be a major set back.

With raging barbarians that can often be a problem. That isn't the case here, and there isn't a lot unexplored land so it shouldn't be a problem. It's definitely a concern though, as in the last ALC game.

Since this time around I have the best barb-whomping unit in the game, it's far less of a concern. In fact, I welcome the barbs this time for the XPs they'll give my Immortals. I will likely forgo building a single Warrior (I have that goody hut-popped one for Worker/Settler protection now), meaning my first handful of Immortals will be city defenders. Once they acquire XPs and promotions from barbs, they'll head out into the field and be replaced by rookies.

I'm off to play the round now and post it later tonight.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 3: 3100 BC to 1900 BC

Heh. So I guess when I posted that I was about to play and post the next round, you all decided to shut up and wait.

As the round started, my first Worker was completed and I sent him south to build a pasture for the pigs. I decided to build a second Worker next. In addition, I figured I had the time to build roads from the pigs over that hill (which I later mined), and that turned out to be the case.

Meanwhile, my Scouts kept exploring. The one to the north managed to find one more tribal village that Genghis somehow missed:

More gold! I can't remember the last time I built up a nest egg of that size before founding my second city. That will certainly help offset initial maintenance costs and prolong keeping the slider at 100%. All this speaks to the advantages of Scouts; I'm sure Genghis missed that hut because he only had 1-move units with which to explore.

This meant that when Pliny assessed the wealthiest civilizations in the world, you-know-who came in at the top of the poll:

Yeah, yeah, I know--I'd better not get used to it. As in real life, the money never seems to stick around very long.

My western Scout was also busy, revealing more Chinese territory, and seeing the first signs of barbs military units:

Good thing I'll have horses soon. Once the 2nd Worker was finished, I immediately started work on a Settler. The two Workers then joined forces to improve the corn tile and then built a road to the horse site. Unfortunately, the Settler did not get a chance to benefit from the Imperialistic production bonus, as two food-heavy tiles were the only ones being worked. Maybe later.

My western Scout encountered more than just barbarian Warriors during his travels. He met two more neighbours:

Well, look at that. Each one managed to found an early religion, and they're probably neighbours. Aren't they just gonna love each other to pieces. I think I'm going to be left alone and given a free hand with which to spank Qin (ooo, vivid imagery, no?). I suspect there will be an Incan-Spanish war before long. Shades of history repeating itself.

I've managed to find Incan territory, which is just a little west of China. No sign of Spain yet, so Isabella is further afield. Unfortunately, as you'll see, the proximity of the Incas to China meant that Qin started expanding in my direction. Then again, maybe that's not such a bad thing, since it means my next few cities have already been built. Bwa-ha-ha...

I finished researching Mining and then Bronze Working. With BW in hand, I switched civics:

I didn't whip the Settler, however. I only had 2 pop in the capital and wanted it to grow in order to work the production tiles. That way I can get a barracks and Immortals out the door ASAP.

Unfortunately, there's no sign of copper anywhere near the starting position:

Darn. Oh well, like I said, I'll have horses soon, and this likely means that iron will appear in the capital's fat cross. It darn well better. This certainly raises the importance of Iron Working. We should discuss how important it may be to research it before Alphabet, or whether I can hold off and trade for it.

And look at how Qin is crowding me! As you'll see, Genghis is a good
ways north, and that's a good thing, since that's the only direction in which I can expand. Qin. Must. DIE. I don't take kindly to being crowded out. Fortunately, both city sites are acceptable, though they both miss out on the flood plains and wine tiles, but a later city could claim those.

With BW done I started researching Mysticism so I can build Monuments. I think Stonehenge is a non-starter this time. Since I delayed the Settler until after a 2nd Worker, I think I'm going to get beat to it, especially since both Huayna and Izzy started with Mysticism.

But the good news is that I founded the much-disputed horse city--1 N of the horses.

Fortunately, that barb Archer went away. But he'll be back. This raises another consideration: I'm building barracks in both cities right now, but should I insert Immortals ahead of them in the queue so I'll have protection from barbs?

My northern Scout found Mongolia and explored it as thoroughly as he could in the absence of an Open Borders agreement. On his way back home, he unfortunately encountered a barbarian archer, and his Woodsman I promotion and location in a jungle across a river weren't enough to save him.

Rest in peace, little buddy. You executed your duties well; the north is thoroughly mapped out, and the treasury is brimming over.

I decided to let the round end with the completion of the next tech.

I've selected Masonry as the next tech so that once Pasargadae's border pops I can get to work on the marble. However, that may be some time away, since I think a barracks and an Immortal or two are higher priorities. On the other hand, the city needs that border pop to work the corn; it has no decent food source right now, though working the plains-based horses is certainly helping its production, if not its growth.

So let's have a look at the map. Starting with Mongolia to the north:

Genghis has some half-decent land and resources up there to keep him preoccupied for awhile. Eventually, however, he'll be looking to expand... and I'll be in his way. And that jungle territory will be prime real estate eventually. Conflict with him is inevitable, but not an immediate concern.

Persia and China next:

Grrr. Like I said, I don't like it when the AI crowds me. Of course, Qin is just making himself a more attractive target since his cities will be close, claim good resources, and have low maintenance.

And Incan territory to the far west:

I still have a Scout out that way, who is currently heading northeast and dodging the occasional barbarian. He may meet the fate of his compatriot, in which case I may want to send an Immortal out that way to perform further exploration--once Writing and Open Borders are in place, of course.

My one complaint about Fractal maps is that they seem extremely perverse when it comes to the location of copper. It's as rare as Stone and Marble, and almost never anywhere convenient to me, and that's certainly the case here. The good news is that Qin will have trouble claiming it too, so we shouldn't be encountering any Chinese Spearmen, and that's very good news. Genghis will be another story, but I suspect by the time I'm ready to take him on, Immortals will have long been obsolete. If I go after a second early target, it may be Huayna, which would also give me great pleasure. Financial and Industrious is a definite threat.

Here's a look at what's going on in each of my cities. The capital first:

I have a Worker mining the plains hill, so I'm planning on having the citizen who appears on the next turn work that tile. Outstanding food for early growth thus far, eh?

Here's how Pasargadae, the horse city, looks:

Phew. Good thing there were horses nearby, since there's no copper within reach until after my second war.

So like I said, the city needs a border pop in order to work the corn and the marble. And I'm worried about barbs units. So our first point of discussion needs to be builds in each city. Should the capital switch to a few barrack-less Immortals while Pasargadae builds a monument, or should I stick with the partially-built barracks?

And what about research? As I mentioned, I thought of Masonry for the marble, but I may not be working it for several turns--Pasargadae needs a monument and border pop (15 turns at epic speed), and I think we're all agreed that the corn would be improved first (though I could shift my 2nd Worker up there).

And, big-picture wise, should I bother with a 3rd city or should I just pump out Immortals and go after Qin? Given the proximity and general quality of his cities, I'm thinking the latter makes sense. With that jungle and distance from Genghis' capital, the north can wait a little while.

I look forward, as always, to your comments, analysis, and advice.

 

[Bhruic]

Qin is definitely too close to wait and try for a 3rd city before attacking him. Giving him the chance for 20% more defense seems silly.

If you add another 4 hammers to Persepolis, you should be done the Barracks in 7 turns. Even that is a long time to risk incoming Barbs. I'd go for 1 Immortal in the capital, as a flying company. Stationed halfway between the 2 cities, it would be able to defend either (and more importantly, the horses) in a single turn. Having the horses pillaged would be devastating at this point.

I'm not sure that Masonry is a big priority right now, without a border pop, you won't be getting the Marble any time soon. And you won't be going for the Wonders. Personally, I think I'd aim for Pottery to get Granaries up.

Bh

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Fortunately, both city sites are acceptable, though they both miss out on the flood plains and wine tiles, but a later city could claim those.

The northern of the two cities appears to pick up both flood plains tiles. You can only see 6 of the 9 tiles, but it's clear that the other 3 lie to the west, because if they were to the east, you'd see them already. That means the city was built on the plains tile north of the flood plains.

Other miscellaneous comments:

• I think you should switch Pasargadae to a monument. You need that monument desperately in order to get the corn.
• Switch Perseopolis to an immortal. One turn before it finishes, switch back to the barracks. Then if you need the unit for something, you're only one turn away from finishing it, but if you're able to wait you'll get the extra experience.
• There must be some technology that you need more than Masonry. If your reason for researching Masonry is to hook up the marble, you're at least 24 turns (9 to build a monument, 15 to accumulate the culture) away from needing it. Since it will take you 7 turns to research Masonry, that means you have 17 turns to do something else. Pottery, Writing, and / or Iron Working come to mind.
• Edit (added): Don't forget that Qin is Protective (I did until someone mentioned it today). Normally I would think a 2.5 : 1 ratio of units would be adequate, but in this case I'd go for at least 3 : 1.

 

[TRJS]

Without knowing how long the immortals will take to build its hard to make a definite call but I would suggest building one in each city prior to barracks.

Working as barb defence means they will make up for their lack of promotions very easily.

 

[gallego]

Don't take chances; get one immortal out for defense. I find that when I build barracks, my promoted units often top off at 10 exp with barbs too soon anyway. One lucky barbarian archer could ruin this game before you finish those barracks. It could also just walk around you and kill your road and pasture improvements, and how are you going to stop it with a warrior?

 

[TheArchduke]

Without knowing how long the immortals will take to build its hard to make a definite call but I would suggest building one in each city prior to barracks.

Working as barb defence means they will make up for their lack of promotions very easily.

Indeed. Don´t risk anything, built at least one in the capital.

And with Qin that annoying, smash him. But remember, do only take his capital. With Qin-promoted Immortals, Gengis who isn´t protective should be a piece of cake.

Thinking about it, you don´t want to have +20defense in those cities,but as Qin is protective aim for the capital first before he can whip walls, or more archers there.

 

[Gr8scott]

Misc thoughts:

-This is a very unfavorable set up in my opinion. Qin is the only logical opponent (mongols are too far away and hiding behind a mass of jungle). Unfortunately Qin is protective and Beijing is on a hill. Major bummer. Not only that, but after Qin, you have to pick whether you want to trek over tundra/desert to huayna or jungle to Genghis.

-I would suggest an immediate immortal in the capital and then do one turn on a second immortal. You can rush the second immortal if an emergency arises. Then I would complete barracks and start immortals for the duration.

-For the Horse city, I would burn a chop to try and accelerate it's progress. Take the worker and chop the forest in the culture to help build a monument. Then return to the barracks/immortal builds. You probably want to plan on using your immortal to help protect workers in this city.

-There is a highly promoted archer from Qin that is about to be trapped in your territory. Not sure if it is better if he is trapped outside or goes back to his own territory, but you will have to keep an eye on him when you invade.

-Speaking of invading, I would suggest we try and take out Beijing first. If we give Beijing a bunch of turns to prepare, our chances of prying them off the hilltop go way down. I would plan on massing my immortals just outside Beijings cultural borders and hope to swoop in with just a turn delay. You may even consider taking a worker and trying to build a road north of Qin's closest city just south of the mountains. If his new city gets a border bump it will block your progress, but the road may shave off 2-3 turns on your rush readiness which could be a difference maker.

-After a tough ride with Qin, things don't look easier. I doubt you can make it to someone else before the time of the immortal fades. The other AIs are pretty far and unlikely to get much closer due to terrain.

-Given the timing of my couple of test games, an elephant/catapult round 2 often makes sense. You may want to keep controlling ivory as a background goal during phase 1. Again looking at the map, there is no easy ivory to pick up without founding some god-awful expensive far away city

Goodluck, I think the RNG gods have not been too kind to you on this one. It is not terrible by any stretch, but this map/setup is definitely bottom half of the distribution (maybe a lot worse). Qin on a hill and no other good targets + poor horsey city. Ah well a good challenge is fun!

GS

 

[lukep]

the immortals may look weak, but the key point is promotions. I used them very late (only longbows are a bit too much), because after the first war you have a bunch of them at combat IV or higher.

Again, key is number. build a lot of them

I would not vorry much about tech path (but construction is priority)

 

[oyzar]

seriously with lure tactics(workers/wounded units) as bait it shouldnt take more than at least 5 imortals to take his capital and you only need 3-4 imortal to take each of the other cities with a fairly high survival rate.