Kev
Hired Goon
I'm less experienced than most, but do we not want to know where Qin might have iron at least? Or is the prevailing thought that we can take him out before he even has a chance to find, develop, and make use of it?
ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
I'm less experienced than most, but do we not want to know where Qin might have iron at least? Or is the prevailing thought that we can take him out before he even has a chance to find, develop, and make use of it?
r_rolo1
King of myself
tile or a grassland or plain mine....
if we go after qin while teching to alphabet (and writing is on the way to alphabet, and pottery is on the optional way to writing), we gain more options, like sueing for peace and techs, or backtrading mathematics and IW from the other civs.
It also opens up the option to build research, which can be good in some rare circumstances. the target is not writing really, it's alphabet.
r lolo has it right, no need to have iron ourselves. + striking fast while qin doesn't have IW is the safest bet.
A Strangely placed 2nd City, I haven't reed any of the post where people debated about the 2nd city placement. Personally I would of made my 2nd city a Coastal horse City and my 3rd City Fish Corn while totally ignore Marble, who wants to build wonders when you can capture them???
After Pottery and Writing I'd make a Beeline to COL of Courthouses while I'm rushing Qin then if I Still have enough Veteran Forces I'll GO straight to the Inca Capital and Capture/Raze depending on my numbers to defend it just to weaken the Inca (Fin/Ind :S) and keep the tech rate at a more reasonable pace.
After Pottery and Writing I'd make a Beeline to COL of Courthouses while I'm rushing Qin then if I Still have enough Veteran Forces I'll GO straight to the Inca Capital and Capture/Raze depending on my numbers to defend it just to weaken the Inca (Fin/Ind :S) and keep the tech rate at a more reasonable pace.
Rycheman
Warlord
I'd research Pottery,Writing,Iron Working and leave Masonry until a little later.
What about a stable in your capital for extra XP's for your Immortals? That way,you can get sentry's for extra fog bursting, or flanking II to avoid Archers ' first strikes,right off the bat!
I'd attack Qin's gold city first and keep it as it's in a good location.
Capac looks good for your second target,he'll have Archers and Axemen both of which Immortals have a bonus against.While Khan should wait for later as you'd be up against Keshiks and will need Iron for that job.
What about a stable in your capital for extra XP's for your Immortals? That way,you can get sentry's for extra fog bursting, or flanking II to avoid Archers ' first strikes,right off the bat!
I'd attack Qin's gold city first and keep it as it's in a good location.
Capac looks good for your second target,he'll have Archers and Axemen both of which Immortals have a bonus against.While Khan should wait for later as you'd be up against Keshiks and will need Iron for that job.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
You need horseback riding for stables though...
Writing next. You want open borders to move through chinese territory when attacking capital first. Qin might build Stonehenge or other culture things soon and you MUST attack capital first. Otherwise you can't have it before cats.
I'd keep both chinese cities between capitals. Their locations are excellent and they can support themselves easily. Don't burn them!
For initial attack I suggest building at least 15 immortals just to make sure. rest of the cities are easier, and afterwards you can harrass another AI just for fun.
If you go writing-alphabet you can ask some techs for peace. Maybe burn some cities of Hyuana, he is most dangerous threat in your continent.
I'd keep both chinese cities between capitals. Their locations are excellent and they can support themselves easily. Don't burn them!
For initial attack I suggest building at least 15 immortals just to make sure. rest of the cities are easier, and afterwards you can harrass another AI just for fun.
If you go writing-alphabet you can ask some techs for peace. Maybe burn some cities of Hyuana, he is most dangerous threat in your continent.
OldDays
Chief Empire Architect
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 43
Keep up the tremendous work Sisiutil!!!
I have read all of your threads (except for the "Prince" ones).
I just managed to achieve my third win on Monarch ... with Cyrus on an isolated starting location...
no offense here... I think this "cheating-discussion" was kind of unnecessary... why are people complaining??? It is your thread an if anybody does not like it... just stay away and dont start silly discussions... "tempus fugit" )
Anyway... This win with Cyrus showed to me that my skills really have improved a lot since i had a hard time on Prince when the new patch came out.
Cant wait to see you stompin' all over them puny AIs... Watch out Qin!!! Time is runnin' out for you
So long...
I have read all of your threads (except for the "Prince" ones).
I just managed to achieve my third win on Monarch ... with Cyrus on an isolated starting location...
no offense here... I think this "cheating-discussion" was kind of unnecessary... why are people complaining??? It is your thread an if anybody does not like it... just stay away and dont start silly discussions... "tempus fugit" )Anyway... This win with Cyrus showed to me that my skills really have improved a lot since i had a hard time on Prince when the new patch came out.
Cant wait to see you stompin' all over them puny AIs... Watch out Qin!!! Time is runnin' out for you
So long...
Put me down in the writing tech camp. Open borders with Qin will be very helpful to know exactly how many archers you are up against in beijing. It is also on the way to alpha which is where I would be leaning right now (to hopefully trade for IW/math)
I disagree with the comments about the importance of fogbusting (either the need for units to fogbust or the need for sentry promotions). With Cyrus, barbarians are usually a good thing. I think of them as free exp opportunities. Once you have a couple of immortals running around, barbarians are a beautiful thing
I also disagree with the number of immortals needed. Delaying things to build beyond 8 or maybe 10 immortals at most seems a waste of time. I agree with the comment that you are going to need about 2.5:1 ratio for a comfortable win over Qin without any special tactics. I haven't used the "wounded unit / worker" baiting tactic before, so I would actually like to see that in action. If you can pry an archer or two out of Beijing then you could go earlier I guess, but I wouldn't count on it.
Most likely, Qin will have 2-3 archers in Beijing, so 8 immortals will be comfortable.
GS
EDIT: One other advantage of writing is it opens up libraries as a potential whipping candidate when Beijing comes out of anarchy.
I disagree with the comments about the importance of fogbusting (either the need for units to fogbust or the need for sentry promotions). With Cyrus, barbarians are usually a good thing. I think of them as free exp opportunities. Once you have a couple of immortals running around, barbarians are a beautiful thing
I also disagree with the number of immortals needed. Delaying things to build beyond 8 or maybe 10 immortals at most seems a waste of time. I agree with the comment that you are going to need about 2.5:1 ratio for a comfortable win over Qin without any special tactics. I haven't used the "wounded unit / worker" baiting tactic before, so I would actually like to see that in action. If you can pry an archer or two out of Beijing then you could go earlier I guess, but I wouldn't count on it.
Most likely, Qin will have 2-3 archers in Beijing, so 8 immortals will be comfortable.
GS
EDIT: One other advantage of writing is it opens up libraries as a potential whipping candidate when Beijing comes out of anarchy.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Dr EJ has already addressed the Chinese city location question. In fact, I think Qin's been exceptionally helpful as far as an Immortal rush against him is concerned. The two cities he's built both fit in nicely with the location of your capital and his, pick up useful resources, have good mid/long term potential, and importantly for a protective AI, they aren't on hills. So far you've got two absolute keepers and a decent fishing village, and he'll have added another city (probably somewhere north of Beijing near the cows and gold) by the time you've built enough Immortals to attack.
All in all, he's done an excellent job
In terms of military strategy, assume a worst-case scenario before declaring. For a quick resolution, take Beijing first (it's his only city with any production and the one most likely to have a barracks), but assume it'll have walls (and it looks like it's on a hill?) so you'll want about 10 Immortals or so. There shouldn't actually be that many archers unless you time the attack badly with him assembling a settler party, which leads us on to the question of research.
Masonry next is going to do absolutely nothing for you as has been discussed. Pottery isn't important right now as you won't want to be working cottages or building granaries any time soon, so that can also wait. Writing is the tech that's going to make life easier, since OB with China will allow you to keep an eye on Beijing and attack accordingly.
In terms of builds and barbs, Pasargadae is the only city barbs can spawn remotely near thanks to Qin's settling policy so that's the only place you need to actively defend (which means 1 Immortal required). Maybe someone else is willing to do the maths on this, but my gut feeling is that you should whip the barracks in the capital (next turn for 2-pop if possible), put the overflow into an Immortal and get a promoted one out there ASAP. It can then regrow quickly with that massive food surplus as it builds you more Immortals. Pasargadae should swap to a monument now, as has been discussed already.
All in all, he's done an excellent job
In terms of military strategy, assume a worst-case scenario before declaring. For a quick resolution, take Beijing first (it's his only city with any production and the one most likely to have a barracks), but assume it'll have walls (and it looks like it's on a hill?) so you'll want about 10 Immortals or so. There shouldn't actually be that many archers unless you time the attack badly with him assembling a settler party, which leads us on to the question of research.
Masonry next is going to do absolutely nothing for you as has been discussed. Pottery isn't important right now as you won't want to be working cottages or building granaries any time soon, so that can also wait. Writing is the tech that's going to make life easier, since OB with China will allow you to keep an eye on Beijing and attack accordingly.
In terms of builds and barbs, Pasargadae is the only city barbs can spawn remotely near thanks to Qin's settling policy so that's the only place you need to actively defend (which means 1 Immortal required). Maybe someone else is willing to do the maths on this, but my gut feeling is that you should whip the barracks in the capital (next turn for 2-pop if possible), put the overflow into an Immortal and get a promoted one out there ASAP. It can then regrow quickly with that massive food surplus as it builds you more Immortals. Pasargadae should swap to a monument now, as has been discussed already.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
I'm not sure if this point has been addressed or not, but copper was made more scarce as one of the general map-generation changes in Warlords, which is why you're not seeing it as often. In terms of balance, I think horses became slightly more common.
At a guess, I'd say it was an attempt to introduce slightly more early game variety beyond the old chestnut of researching BW, settling by copper (if you didn't already have it) and axe-rushing a neighbour. The bonus chariots now receive when attacking axes also reflects this as they're no longer the uber/uncountered unit of the ancient era.
I think you should definitely kill the barracks idea in the second city and get at least 1 immortal up there for defense. I had my horses pillaged in my game and it was indeed devastating. Go for researching writing. I am curious to see how you can "quickly" produce enough immortals from just these two cities to attack Qin before he has enough archers or defense to counter. it will be a learning experience for me to see ... I assume the whip comes into play?
aelf
Ashen One
Protective capital on a hill is worrying. I also vote that you keep an eye on it as much as possible to plan and time your attack well.
vale
Mathematician
I agree. Looking at some rough calculations, I found that if Qin has a single barracks (CG II) archer in his capital, you will need 3 immortals before you are a favorite to kill it. So you really need overwhelming numbers or to take advantage of the ais stupidity in pulling units out of critical places.
I think that Persepolis not only should switch to an immortal I would go so far as to recommend that you whip it after 1 turn. I don't know if anyone realizes how dangerous the current situation is. 1900BC is right around the time when barbs start entering your territory (does anyone know the exact date for Monarch?). Pasargadae is defended by a single warrior and doesn't have the population to whip any additional defenders. If you wait until a barb unit appears at Pasargadae's border an immortal whipped in Persepolis wouldn't be able to reach Pasargadae in time. That would mean the warrior would have to defend and if it loses, well you know what that means. Say goodbye to your precious horse city (and your chances of winning?) 
.
I would position the immortal in the tile SE of the horses so it fogbusts that area while it's still in position to move to defend the city if a barb appears. Prior to finishing the barracks I would build two more immortals: a second immortal for Pasargadae (which should be fortified in the forest tile next to the city to deny the cover to any barbs that appear) and a garrison unit for Persepolis (you do realize your capital is undefended, right?). Then you can finish the barracks and start building your invasion force.
Pasargadae's build should be switched to a monument and a worker should be dispatched ASAP to chop the forest adjacent to the city (which will not only help complete the monument but remove that cover). The worker (with immortal protection) can then pre-build the roads needed for the corn and marble while waiting for the border expansion.
On a different subject I've been giving some thought to the timing of the attack on Qin and I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to delay it a bit.
I'm sure this will be a bit controversial as everyone has been suggesting that the immortal rush needs to happen ASAP to catch Qin when he is weakest. But I wonder if this is really the best move. This goes back to the discussion earlier concerning using an early warrior to harass a neighbor and stifle development. At the time it was pointed out that that tactic is counter-productive when you're planning an early attack as you want your neighbor to develop their cities so that you'll get more when you capture them. With that in mind wouldn't it be worthwhile to wait a bit to attack Qin?
Now I'm not suggesting that you wait until there's a threat Qin would be getting LBs. But a short delay might be beneficial. Doesn't the AI focus more on infrastructure buildup (including workers) at this point? So Qin's defenses aren't likely to improve significantly for a while. Even if they do improve and some more immortals are lost wouldn't it be worth it if the captured cities are more valuable.
Qin doesn't have copper so there's no need to rush to avoid spears. And since Qin is Industrious if we give him some time how likely is it that he'll build a wonder or two that can be captured?
Writing next for OB would allow the early immortals to keep an eye on Qin's development and try to find an optimal time for the attack.
Of course a delay would be a bad move if the plan is to fight a second war with immortals. The problem in this case is that this map just doesn't lend itself to a second early war.
.I would position the immortal in the tile SE of the horses so it fogbusts that area while it's still in position to move to defend the city if a barb appears. Prior to finishing the barracks I would build two more immortals: a second immortal for Pasargadae (which should be fortified in the forest tile next to the city to deny the cover to any barbs that appear) and a garrison unit for Persepolis (you do realize your capital is undefended, right?). Then you can finish the barracks and start building your invasion force.
Pasargadae's build should be switched to a monument and a worker should be dispatched ASAP to chop the forest adjacent to the city (which will not only help complete the monument but remove that cover). The worker (with immortal protection) can then pre-build the roads needed for the corn and marble while waiting for the border expansion.
On a different subject I've been giving some thought to the timing of the attack on Qin and I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to delay it a bit.
I'm sure this will be a bit controversial as everyone has been suggesting that the immortal rush needs to happen ASAP to catch Qin when he is weakest. But I wonder if this is really the best move. This goes back to the discussion earlier concerning using an early warrior to harass a neighbor and stifle development. At the time it was pointed out that that tactic is counter-productive when you're planning an early attack as you want your neighbor to develop their cities so that you'll get more when you capture them. With that in mind wouldn't it be worthwhile to wait a bit to attack Qin?
Now I'm not suggesting that you wait until there's a threat Qin would be getting LBs. But a short delay might be beneficial. Doesn't the AI focus more on infrastructure buildup (including workers) at this point? So Qin's defenses aren't likely to improve significantly for a while. Even if they do improve and some more immortals are lost wouldn't it be worth it if the captured cities are more valuable.
Qin doesn't have copper so there's no need to rush to avoid spears. And since Qin is Industrious if we give him some time how likely is it that he'll build a wonder or two that can be captured?
Writing next for OB would allow the early immortals to keep an eye on Qin's development and try to find an optimal time for the attack.
Of course a delay would be a bad move if the plan is to fight a second war with immortals. The problem in this case is that this map just doesn't lend itself to a second early war.
ac196nataku
Noob
PRO archers on hills are brutal... :/
But nothing can withstand our mighty horde of Immortals!!
But nothing can withstand our mighty horde of Immortals!!
No way you can wait. By the time S will have 10 Immortals, Qin culture in capital should be still 40% or less. 60%, Prot and on hill archers is a big no-no.
Validator makes a lot of good points, as usual. Getting a unit out early is probably a better idea than waiting. Cyrus is Charismatic so experience and promotions are the easiest things to make up. Losing any of your improvements is not something that can be made up at all.
My objection to delaying the attack is that there's little worth building or improving in the cities Sisiutil currently has. Immortals are the best hammer investment available right now. Sure the attack can be delayed slightly- don't go rushing in with 6 immortals- but besides monuments and maybe granaries and libraries soon there's nothing else to build.
I think the advice should be - attack at the best early opportunity. Not just the earliest opportunity.
My objection to delaying the attack is that there's little worth building or improving in the cities Sisiutil currently has. Immortals are the best hammer investment available right now. Sure the attack can be delayed slightly- don't go rushing in with 6 immortals- but besides monuments and maybe granaries and libraries soon there's nothing else to build.
I think the advice should be - attack at the best early opportunity. Not just the earliest opportunity.
With just the palace providing culture Beijing will reach 40% in about 20 turns so there's no way Sisiutil can have an attack force ready before then. Qin will have LBs before Beijing reaches 60% so that's not an issue.
A delay could mean that the other cities would reach 20% defense, but since none of the cities that we can see are on hills and they aren't likely to have a lot of defenders I don't see the threat as major.
Granaries and Libraries are definitely a possibility.
One other possibility would be to try for the Oracle. With marble hooked up it costs the same as 3 immortals. That's the one wonder it doesn't do any good to capture.
I think that's exactly what I was trying to get at.
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