ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[patagonia]

I think that Persepolis not only should switch to an immortal I would go so far as to recommend that you whip it after 1 turn. I don't know if anyone realizes how dangerous the current situation is. 1900BC is right around the time when barbs start entering your territory (does anyone know the exact date for Monarch?).

<snip>

Pasargadae's build should be switched to a monument and a worker should be dispatched ASAP to chop the forest adjacent to the city (which will not only help complete the monument but remove that cover). The worker (with immortal protection) can then pre-build the roads needed for the corn and marble while waiting for the border expansion.

On a different subject I've been giving some thought to the timing of the attack on Qin and I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to delay it a bit.

<snip>

Writing next for OB would allow the early immortals to keep an eye on Qin's development and try to find an optimal time for the attack.

Of course a delay would be a bad move if the plan is to fight a second war with immortals. The problem in this case is that this map just doesn't lend itself to a second early war.

There are a few good points here, but having had a proper look at the save now I think the overall approach is too cautious.

In terms of city builds:
Pasargadae should switch to a Monument now as I think everyone's agreed.
Persepolis should stay as it is for one more turn, then whip the barracks for 2-pop. This way you get a barracks, a promoted Immortal on the following turn and a little bit of overflow into the next. At size 2 working corn and pigs, Persepolis has a food surplus of +10 so it'll grow back to working mines in no time, and this gives you much more bang for your buck than panic-whipping a single rookie Immortal now.

In terms of workers:
Chopping the forest Validator mentioned for Pasargadae's monument is a smart move, and the worker on the horses is nicely placed to do that job. This will get you some culture there with a bit of overflow to help the barracks along once it's done. Pre-roading corn and marble is a waste of worker turns in the short term as you've already got corn connected and aren't going to be building any marble wonders in a hurry, which frees this guy up for something more useful. It's not immediately apparent what that should be, but perhaps a farm 1SW of Pasargadae in the short term?
The worker in Persepolis should finish his current mine, then go and mine the forested grassland hill 2S of the city. The chop there will get you a "free" Immortal and should come in around the time the city will have grown to work that tile.

In terms of military:
We only need one Immortal soon. Persepolis is due a border pop which will remove the fog between it and Pasargadae. The "free" Immortal from whipping the barracks can therefore garrison and "actively" defend your northern border, allowing the warrior there to return to the capital and keep the citizens there happy. No barbs can approach Persepolis without passing straight through Chinese territory so Qin's the only threat to the capital and you're going to hit him first.

It makes sense to gather the army in Pasargadae so that they can pick up any XPs available from barbs approaching from the north. You may not see many though as it's a fairly narrow strip in which to spawn up there.

Writing is a must as once Qin's borders pop in his new cities (which they're likely to do before you're ready to attack), you'll need OB with him to get your stack in position to strike directly at Beijing.

As for delaying the invasion, I think that would be foolish. You're going to suffer pretty heavily if you allow Qin time to tech to iron and start building swords, since they really do slap Immortals about. You seem quite confident about having iron yourself, and given the lack of visible metal in China I wouldn't be surprised if Qin had some too.

 

[Elkad]

Well I think we can say one thing. The 3rd party peek at the map sure isn't handing you a easy game. Horses in awkward spot, protective neighbor with a hill capital crowding you, and no copper.

Successful immortal rush is not only the fun option, its required.

 

[Neoclast]

Only place for barb probs is the second city. our Capitol due to its view, the coast and the chinese cities does not need to worry about them.

In light of that an immortal from the capitol can protect it just fine. The 2nd city needs to get monument and barracks in so when the war starts it is grown and ready to produce immortals.

As far as techs, pushing toward Monarchy seems right and masonry should be snuck in soon to help production in city 2.

 

[LlamaCat]

I forget how the tech order works out but is it worth researching horseback riding and at some point also building a stable in the capital for the immortals? just wondering if this new Warlords building would play into a stategy like the one that's developing.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, message received. Switch builds and research and then spam Immortals. Keep an eye on Qin and look for the best time to launch an attack, taking Beijing first. Got it.

I have read all of your threads (except for the "Prince" ones).

If you're getting anything out of these games, I would highly recommend looking at the ones played on Prince as well. There isn't such a huge difference between the two difficulty levels that strategies and tactics on Prince won't work on Monarch.

Some what have now become established tactics in these games were developed, discussed, and deployed in detail in those early games for the first time. For example, the riverside ironworks (Qin game), the specialist economy (Frederick game), and so on. There are also some unique gambits that haven't been repeated in any game since like the late-game, specialist-powered cultural victory (Victoria game) and the MC-fueled early Pyramids (Frederick again). I also haven't repeated a conquest (Alexander) or cultural (Victoria) victory on Monarch level yet.

 

[Elkad]

Actually, I wonder if Welnic picked this map not just because it met your rules, but because of the layout.

If he picked this one vs a (theoretical) one with a weak neighbor and horses in the capital or something, kudos for giving Sis (and all us lurkers) an interesting game.

 

[Sisiutil]

I forget how the tech order works out but is it worth researching horseback riding and at some point also building a stable in the capital for the immortals? just wondering if this new Warlords building would play into a stategy like the one that's developing.

HBR is a very expensive early tech. By the time it was researched and stables built, the era of the Immortal would probably be over. Frankly, at that point, Archery would be a pretty cheap tech and it would be all that's needed for Horse Archers, meaning the Immortals would be obsolete.

Remember that Cyrus is Charismatic, meaning that he can acquired that next promotion more easily than the next guy, and Immortals can collect XPs easily against any other unit of the era with the obvious exception of Spearmen.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

I think I'm going to be left alone and given a free hand with which to spank Qin

I'd rather use my free hand to spank Issy, just to watch that reddened, heaving bosom...

Err, sorry, got distracted there...back to not-reality!


I originally liked Dr. Elmer's proposal of prebuilding the Immortal, but after Patagonia's post above I think the 2-pop whipping/overflow idea is a better one. Then the Immortal spamming.

I also think writing for OB is the way to go - I don't know if the AI will prioritize Iron Working, but without copper around it might. If that's the case, you'll be attacking while it's researching IW probably. If it times out right, and you keep on towards Alphabet, Qin could need to give up IW to sue for peace after he's down to one city. Most likely you'll whack him before he gets close, but at least if you did want/need to sue for peace before he's completely gone, you'd get something useful from him.

One other option, taking a cue from the pre-build idea: Research IW for a turn or two before writing. Huayna won't be long before getting Alphabet, so maybe you could get IW from him for a reduced cost by getting that first turn or two of IW done in advance.

Eh, don't have a lot of original stuff to add - most of what I could come up with has already been posted.

 

[NaZdReG]

I disagree on trying to take out the chinese capitol. unlikely that even 10 immortals can defeat 3-4 fortified archers on a hill within the city. instead focus that military rage on the 2 cities closest to yourself. they will already be improved somewhat by the time you have the immortals nessessary to attack. from there pillage all the improvements around bejing, which will cripple him dramatically. come back and finish him off when it is more convienent, or you have enough military to defeat him without weaking your position too much (making you a barb or mongolian target)

NaZ

 

[Bhruic]

I think making a decision without information is futile. Attacking the capital if it has 4-5 Archers in it would be pointless. Not attacking it if it has 1-2 Archers in it would be silly. But right now, we don't know how many it has. Once we get Writing, we can scout it out and make a decision at that point. Arguing about it until then doesn't make a lot of sense, imo.

Bh

 

[Sisiutil]

I'd rather use my free hand to spank Issy, just to watch that reddened, heaving bosom...

Well, this could be another game in which I cuddle up with our favourite Spanish religious fanatic.

In addition to Kietharr's previous suggestion regarding enticing Huayna into attacking Izzy and then entering the war on Izzy's side (Machiavelli is chuckling in his grave), I'm hoping that Buddhism will eventually spread to one of my cities, in which case I'll probably convert to it and spread it. We all know there's nothing like sharing her religion that sets Isabella's heart a-flutter. Isabella is further away than both Huayna and Genghis (and also less dangerous than them in the long run), so I think it makes sense to keep her friendly--at least until it's time for .

(As far as the Civ IV babes go, Isabella has a definite advantage over Catherine in that she's more predictable. However, Elizabeth takes top marks for being the easiest to get along with--and I've got this thing for redheads. )

We also shouldn't assume that there aren't more civs (2 remaining to be met) on this land mass yet to be discovered. It's a fractal map, and given its emerging E-W twisty-turny orientation, that leads me to believe it could be quite large, perhaps even a Pangaea, but we'll see. Before I go sending a much-needed Immortal out to explore, don't forget that I still have a Scout left who is on the other side of China's borders. That's another reason to get Writing and Open Borders soon: it'll be easier to keep the Scout safe if he's inside other civs' borders as much as possible.

Just so we're clear, most of you are recommending researching Writing next, skipping Pottery, correct?

 

[popejubal]

Just so we're clear, most of you are recommending researching Writing next, skipping Pottery, correct?

I find the idea of skipping Pottery truly offensive. It is a remarkably useful tech.


...in this case, however, it seems sensible.
1) Open Borders = good for exploration and victim selection.
2) Libraries = good for whatever cities Qin hands you.
3) Alphabet = Pointy Stick Research(tm)

Maybe you can beat Pottery out of Qin if you get lucky. I wouldn't count on Iron Working, but Pottery is a possibility.

 

[futurehermit]

I saw that somewhere else (the pregame thread?), but it made me wonder how useful that would be in actual practice. The value of immortals isn't their awesome combat power but rather that they're available early and cheap. You'll take heavy losses, but they're replaceable. Blitz, on the other hand, is useful when you have a unit that's so much more powerful than its enemy that it can survive the first attack with enough health to safely make a second. How often will that really happen with an immortal? Never?

Blitz cavalry, yes. Blitz immortals, I don't get it. Seems like you'd be better off taking Shock (I love Shock for mounted units), Flanking I, Combat IV, or any number of other alternatives.

Here is how you use blitz immortals super-effectively:

-You send your flanking-promoted immortals in first (preferably flanking II) to damage the units, then you send your blitz-promoted immortals in 2nd to mop up the defenders two at a time. If you promote your units properly, you can take out cities lightning-fast and with minimal casualties, even injuries. What is better? Two injured units or one injured blitz-promoted unit?

 

[oyzar]

there is no reason whatsoever to take bejing first... All the cities should be keepable and taking the other cities first can lure out units of his capital...

 

[Validator]

I'm hoping that Buddhism will eventually spread to one of my cities, in which case I'll probably convert to it and spread it.

I would actually be looking to take the opposite approach: hope Hinduism spreads and convert to that. The reason is that after Qin is dead I think that Genghis should be your next target. There is a lot of good land up north (enough for at least 12 cities I think). If you leave Genghis alone too long he will build himself a mighty empire that will be quite challenging to take down. Also the best land is up north, so you'll want to get control of those cities relatively quickly.

But this does create a problem. Given the shape of this map, if you move the bulk of your forces north you would have a hard time defending your Chinese cities if Huayna decided to attack. The alternative would be to keep a relatively large defensive force in your western cities while you attack Genghis, but that dilutes your military strength.

The best solution therefore is diplomatic. Make friends with Huayna. And the early religion founding plays right into your hands. Isabella won't like it, but she's not likely to be a threat if it works out the Incan lands are between you and the Spanish. If the seemingly inevitable Spanish-Incan war does start (possibly at your urging) go ahead and join in with Huayna for the MMS benefits. Your cities won't be at any risk.

Once Genghis is taken care of you can move your forces south and when the time is right Huayna. Maybe instigate another Spanish-Incan war first to divert his attention. If you have Buddhism in one of your cities at that point you could convert to it. The "brothers of the faith" bonus with Izzy will quickly counteract the negatives from any previous actions.

Once Huayna's done then it's Izzy's turn.

I would also think that Huayna would be a better tech trading partner than Izzy. Although it will be harder to get him to "Friendly".

Just so we're clear, most of you are recommending researching Writing next, skipping Pottery, correct?

The problem with Pottery first is I don't think you can finish Pottery, Writing and Masonry in time to build the marble quarry when Pasargadae gets its border expansion. If you're willing to wait on the quarry, then Pottery->Writing would probably be best.

 

[futurehermit]

there is no reason whatsoever to take bejing first... All the cities should be keepable and taking the other cities first can lure out units of his capital...

There is a reason, a very good reason. Qin is protective. The AI pumps archers in the capital during a war. The capital has the highest cultural defence.

The faster you take out the capital, the fewer units he'll have there and the fewer casualties you will take.

The capital has the most developed tiles and thus the ability to produce units the most quickly. The outlying cities will be less developed, have less cultural defence, and less ability to whip/build units quickly and thus are much easier to mop up.

TAKE THE CAPITAL FIRST

 

[futurehermit]

I would leave Genghis alone. Let him develop all those jungle tiles for you. Why do you want to waste your worker turns doing that.

Plus he's aggressive and will have a sizeable army at this point. Why lose so many troops?

He has no economic traits or advantages really. His strength is during the 1st 3 eras. Why attack him during his time of strength? He is no threat to win the game as he is always backwards in tech late-game.

Instead, I would focus on Huayna. He is a legitimate threat to outrun you tech wise and then to field superior troops. Issy can also develop some power if left alone.

Bribe Genghis as your lapdog to keep him off your back and work your way West. Once you have out-teched Genghis (say at Cavalry) you can go in and mop the floor with him.

 

[Sisiutil]

I would leave Genghis alone. Let him develop all those jungle tiles for you. Why do you want to waste your worker turns doing that.

Plus he's aggressive and will have a sizeable army at this point. Why lose so many troops?

He has no economic traits or advantages really. His strength is during the 1st 3 eras. Why attack him during his time of strength? He is no threat to win the game as he is always backwards in tech late-game.

Instead, I would focus on Huayna. He is a legitimate threat to outrun you tech wise and then to field superior troops. Issy can also develop some power if left alone.

Bribe Genghis as your lapdog to keep him off your back and work your way West. Once you have out-teched Genghis (say at Cavalry) you can go in and mop the floor with him.

Sorry, Validator, but my fellow Canuck makes some excellent points here. By taking down Qin and then Huayna, I remove the two Financial civs in the game. We all know that by the late medieval/early renaissance eras--possibly even earlier--both Genghis and Isabella tend to fall behind. All the more reason to deal with them then.

Why not let Genghis build an empire so I can take it from him? By the time I have Engineering for Trebuchets and Pikemen I don't see the Great Khan being much of a problem. However, this does make it vital to keep him happy. Giving in to his demands for tribute, and sharing his religion, will be important. It's good to decide this way ahead of time.

 

[KMadCandy]

Isabella is further away than both Huayna and Genghis (and also less dangerous than them in the long run), so I think it makes sense to keep her friendly--at least until it's time for .

(As far as the Civ IV babes go, Isabella has a definite advantage over Catherine in that she's more predictable. However, Elizabeth takes top marks for being the easiest to get along with--and I've got this thing for redheads. )

last paragraph first ... if you're used to redheads that are easy to get along with, canada must be quite an odd place. i can say that, i am one. a redhead, not a canada.

you know i do the whole war thing differently than you do. i'm really lost about your picking friends statement tho. as far as diplomacy in civ4, i pick my friends based on who i want to protect myself from, who's help gonna protect me from other people, who i want to distract until i can choose the timing of the war, or who's gonna trade with me, usually. izzy's not a generous trader. i don't think you're planning on asking her for help with huayna are you? and i don't think you consider her anything close to dangerous yet, as far as wanting friendship to protect you. so none of my reasons add up to picking her.

i'm sure you have some reason in mind, but i really don't get it. sure, we'll want to be friends later before we abuse her. but she's the easiest one in the entire game to get a late friendship with. change religions and bingo, you're in, no pre-planning or laying the foundation necessary. so for now, i'd manipulate the heck out of the guys that are the bigger threat now/short-term.

 

[popejubal]

Here is how you use blitz immortals super-effectively:

-You send your flanking-promoted immortals in first (preferably flanking II) to damage the units, then you send your blitz-promoted immortals in 2nd to mop up the defenders two at a time. If you promote your units properly, you can take out cities lightning-fast and with minimal casualties, even injuries. What is better? Two injured units or one injured blitz-promoted unit?

Two injured units seems better to me than 1 dead blitz promoted unit.

...especially since that blitz promotion could have been March or the next Combat promotion instead to allow the units to heal just that much faster with the medic in the stack.

Immortals are super-cheap and meant to be semi-disposable, but why try to put such a heavy promotion on them like Blitz when the next Combat promotion would give better odds, less chance of death AND faster healing.

Aside from Tanks and Modern Armor, Helicopters are the only non-Warlord units that I see really benefitting from Blitz unless you are insanely ahead of your neighbors in techs.

Even something like a heavily promoted beefy unit like Camel Archers aren't going to do well on their second (injured) attack in the same round against the defensive units of the era (Longbows).