ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[OTAKUjbski]

That is the most beautiful dotmap I've ever seen.

Thanks. I did just update it though to include the Blue & White cities from EEE_BOY's dotmap, though (otherwise unchanged).

Spoiler updated image :

Magenta is a filler city for sometime after CoL.

settle the pink spot first to block charli. followed quickly by yellow then green.

Pink? There are too many reasons not to start with that city. It has low food and no food or production in it's first ring, which inhibits the immediate use we desperately need. It's also under heavy pressure from Charlies' Capital.

BTW, I outlined your Pink city in black on my DotMap.​

Green? I had thought about that spot too. I have the same thing against it as I do Pink ... no or in the first ring. In fact, the Cows and the Forests are the only production it has. The inland Green spot can immediately begin working Madrid's Rice then from pop 2+ start working Cottage after Cottage after Cottage on all that beautiful grassland. If need be, the inland Green site can also steal the hills and Cows for 15.


I hate waiting for Culture pops, and given the apparent time crunch, every turn counts.

First suggestion is south of Charly somewhere to claim the ivory, 1S of cows looks promising with what you ve revealed so far. Yes, its a bit far but it does block Charly off one direction, is a great gather point to mount a rush, and as you have no resource save for wine having ivory can prove quite useful. Then again he may just beat you to it.
The second one likely will have the desert hill you suggest NW of Madrid.

Great point! I also added the blue site to my DotMap (yay Photobucket for updating images.)

 

[EEE_BOY]

to avoid too much overlap, i reposition the blue and the red city.

 

[Azander]

Take charlie out. He is of no use, and will be a real pain in the *** later on. His focus right now is on expansion, not military, this is the time to strike!

Edit: As mentioned earlier, you could spend a few turns on espionage against him, then use a spy against him to eliminate his cultural defense with a city riot.. No need to worry about his holiness... Of course, you still dont have spies (i think you'll need writing to get them), and it might not be enough with only 1 spy, or 1 attempt..

 

[Shigga]

Hi there, long time ALC lurker to give you his 2 cents:

Axe-rushing an IMP leader is NOT FUN at all. If you take the stakes, I'd go about it this way:
Don't build your stack on guessing what Chuck will bring up. Build a smaller stack, like 5 axes or the like and start pillaging him like crazy. He will still rush 1 unit per turn BUT by crippling his eco he will be forced to use up his capitals pop and that can only go so far. While you're having fun stomping around like godzilla, keep producing axes and keep an eye on his cap. This way you can far better pinpoint the # of axes you'll need and reduce the gamble compared to the guessing beforehand. Plus you can switch your cities production as early as possible back to infrastructure. Plus you get the gold from the pillaging.

Last but not least, thank you so much for ALC. Your games are as entertaining as they are educating. You're a most valuable contributor to CFC.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I'd go with Otakus dotmap. I think the overlaps are crafty.

 

[Scarredroman]

It's wise to take along a spearman or two as a couple of chariots can do very unpleasant things to your stack of axes. There's a time consideration here, to grab the Oracle and going after hunting now would put that in jeopardy.

 

[Shigga]

Yeah that's standard procedure so I didn't mention it.

 

[patagonia]

I suggest rushing, because other holy city is so close! Whip barracks and build/whip/chop 6-7 axes for attack. There shouldn't be too many defenders this early, because AIs want to expand and is building settlers. And cities are small, so only 1-2 archers can be whipped in worst case scenario.

Delay other cities until you found monoteism, and let double holy city be your shrine city.

I concur.

Having HRE so close with a holy floodplain city capital is just too good an opportunity to pass up on.

Once the worker's built, hook up bronze while building a warrior to defend Madrid (cheaper in terms of hammers so the best option by far). Then chop whip a barracks and 6-9 axes. Don't bother with a settler or stonehenge, that's hammers you could be using for an army. Tech up through pottery to writing and sign OB with Charlemagne so that you can scout out his capital's defences to work out how many axes you need, and his direction of expansion. Then drop your stack of axes on his doorstep and wipe out the heretics.

You can guarantee that his capital will be the best second city site in the area and it's close enough to afford. Charlemagne is also a dirty backstabber who'll attack at friendly and techs well so kicking him out of this game ASAP would be my number one priority. Going to war now before founding a second city is the best way to get rid of him and still have time to build the Oracle for Theology. If you found Barcelona first, it'll at most contribute 1 axe to the offensive stack and soak up much more production in building and defending so it can definitely wait until later.

There was a bit of discussion about early rushing in BtS in the pregame thread and this is an ideal opportunity.

 

[Molon Labe]

I would strongly argue for taking Charlie out as soon as possible. The longer he is left, the more of a pain he will be for you. He will block your expansion and likely spam missionaries to convert everybody else to Buddhism. He will also grow stronger, and while protective archers aren't ideal to rush, protective longbows and landsknechts will be a nightmare. Especially if you don't have a large empire giving you a lot of production.

I think you should plan on using Charles for your expansion. Don't build too many settlers yet, go for 'henge and oracle and use the GP to get Theocracy for the unit promotions. Snag Alphabet from the Oracle, and trade to stay up with neighbours.

Build CRII axemen and go after Chuck. If you move quickly he will likely be focusing on settlers and missionaries and won't have too many archers in his cities. You'll be able to take them with losses (probably 3 to 1) and remove the number one threat to you right now. You also get a juicy holy city out of it.

 

[Whitedragon]

I would be cautious about attacking too soon. I do not advocate attacking him early. The number of axemen required will likely be high. However, if you feel that you must take him out, do it sooner rather than later. Embrace your inner Isabella and drive the heretics from the land. The sooner you attack, the fewer the number of archers against you.

Keep an eye open for the announcement that Charlie has converted to slavery. That in itself will make your job that much harder.

Also, the AI balances its units more. You can bet that if Charlie has horses nearby that you'll be up against chariots as well as the protective archers.

The good news is that the AI also seems to put some stock into early espionage. That could work in your favor if Charlie invests a little in your direction and slows his research.

 

[oyzar]

The point is that yellow city on the wine still blocks Charlie and it isn't as threatened by his culture + you get that grassland hill double floodplains, no coastal squares and the corn. The coastal city doesn't block as well and the cioty one E of the wine doesn't have any longterm potential whatsoever... Or at least worse than the corn city.

 

[Quotey]

Axe rush him to high heaven. Whether it takes 10 or 2 axes, but start hammering and don't stop until his name is gone from the scoreboard. I have played 2 continents games with everyone but 1 on mine recently, Charlie (I like how we're all calling him different things) was really close, started expanding and by the time I decided to attack (Catapults) He had loads of units (Archers, but he got Feudalism and started upgrading) and he was impossible to topple.

Get 'im early.

Oh, and how the hell do you pronounce Sisiutil? Sis-wee-til? Sis-you-til?

 

[Scarredroman]

Looks as thought he consensus is 'go for Charlie from the get go'.

Can you combine building axemen with cutting for Stonehenge? Can you afford to delay the techs for Theology by researching hunting next? If the answer is yes to either or both, sharpen those axes.

 

[madscientist]

After thinking it over

1) Forget Stonehenge completely, get the oracle.
2) Settle teh best 2 cities.
3) KILL CHARLES THE HERETIC. It could be knockout blow or slow attrition but that dude has to go.

 

[Gocho]

Charlie is one of the worst people to have to axe rush in the game. I being a warmonger would do it but if your going to do it pre cats your going to have to go all out on it which means skipping some early wonders.

Really (without knowing if you could rex via boats) you have to choose between a hard military strike or rexing which he is better at trait wise. I have a feeling this won't be a walkover game at all. I'll be grabbing the save later today to try it out and from the info you have so far I will be rushing hard.

 

[Azander]

All heretics must die! Isabella will scratch out their eyes with her well manicured fingernails..! Grrr!

Besides, Aachen will quickly grow with those floodplains, giving you a good shot at getting a GPr early- just what you need to found christianity with Theology. You don't need the Oracle to get Theology- you need Aachen!

 

[alcaras]

If you're going to go after Charlie, switch to go after him full force.

Either go all the way or don't bother until catapults.

 

[pindicator]

I would go for catapults if you are going to rush charlie. Hire a couple scientists and it shouldn't take too long to get there. You could even try to use the Oracle on the Math/Const line to get there faster.

In my experience playing to a focused goal produces better results than grabbing whatever happens to be "best" at the time. Even if this means "wasting" Oracle on Math instead of grabbing a sexier tech like CoL or MC, that's some 20-25 turns faster of getting your cats on Charlie's doorstep.

BTW - Does anybody else think that Charlie looks just a little too much like Super Mario with a crown?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Maybe Mario married princess Peach after all and settled down to grow a beard in later life. Does he say "It's-a-me, Charlemagne?"

 

[dazman92]

Axe rush him to high heaven. Whether it takes 10 or 2 axes, but start hammering and don't stop until his name is gone from the scoreboard. I have played 2 continents games with everyone but 1 on mine recently, Charlie (I like how we're all calling him different things) was really close, started expanding and by the time I decided to attack (Catapults) He had loads of units (Archers, but he got Feudalism and started upgrading) and he was impossible to topple.

Get 'im early.

Oh, and how the hell do you pronounce Sisiutil? Sis-wee-til? Sis-you-til?

i pronounce it sis-e-you-til. but im also a complete failure at life, so take my advice waringly.

oh, and axe rush.

 

[Morgrad]

i pronounce it sis-e-you-til. but im also a complete failure at life, so take my advice waringly.

oh, and axe rush.

I say: "SIS-oo-ee-til", which is probably totally wrong. When I see something I don't know how to pronounce, my brain assigns a pronounciation that it uses for the word/name from that point forward, until someone corrects me.

Oh, and axe rush.