ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[Porphyrius]

I'd settle in place, why?
[...]4. 3 tiles north is coast, so your on a jutting peninsula, settle inland for 2nd city.

I missed that at first. Yup, theres coast to your north so i'd move the warrior north (most likely 1NW) to get a feel of the coastline.
Basically the only thing that makes sense appart from settling in place is 1S, IF it turns out up north has a good city site and you just feel giving it a bit more room plus the rice.

You ll end up making Madrid a GP farm most likely as tiles around the lake are beeter off farmed.
No need to prioritize Ag and farming the Rice either, 3 -> 4 tile aint much.

1N is really likely to be copper/iron/horses/coal, lets hope its not the latter. Anyway settling on top of it looks a major no-no.


I suggest mine/BW initially myself as well. Working a 2 + 2 tile early just to quarantee 1 of the 2 earliest religions will hinder boats/city growth to much. Get Poly before mine if you feel so inclined, but prioritize 2 boats/growth to size 3.

The rest still depends on what land you have close by/closest AI(s).
The pre-thread eventually turned "lets get the AP right here and now". Neither the AP or Theology are AIs favorites though, so id suggest paying equal attention to expanding/defending properly.

Oh, and depending on your luck reveal the hidden resource 1N, dont forget to put sail in the early techs someplace.

 

[Scarredroman]

That city is going to grow quickly without building any workboats. I'd settle in place, though I'd expect the resource IN to be horses rather than a metal.

Working the lake does mean there's not much point building anything other than Stonehenge. Polytheism-Mining-Bronzeworking are my early tech choices. I hope I'd pop Masonry from a hut.

 

[Oko]

I'd go with settling.
Like the permanoob, I also had a look at the save and like she said, you cannot see it from the screenshot, but there's a plainshill 2W of the current position of the settler. That's quite enough beakers for early production and as has been said, the empty square could be anything.
I'm guessing Uranium, just to rain on everyone's parade, but hey, it'd be more production in the end, eh?
There also seems to be no real reason to move around a lot, though moving the warrior might give nice results.
Might.

As for the religion discussion, barring the odd chance that you're isolated (or has this been checked to be isolation free start?) or on an islands map, I'd head for one of the earlier religions. Meanwhile, hoping for a good amount of neighbours, I like to snatch the early religipon if possible, then research either CoL or Theo for the free missionary, then spread the new religion to my patsy, ie. the civilization I want to get screwed. Naturally spreading my religion to other neighbours.
(This also goes with the whole religious war-theme of Isabel.)

Either way, I'd snatch Polytheism while working the lake for additional research. Even if you fail, you've paved the way for Monotheism, and let's face it, Izzy without religion is just wrong.
There will be need for BW quite early seeing how much forests there are just aching to get chopped for growth.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Hmmm... Let's see

• Isabella of Spain... check
• Spain on a Lake (tm)... check
• Plenty of food resources in the BFC... check

Your capital is a prime candidate for a Wall-Street city. Gold from your shrine, combined with gold from your merchants, and settled early Great Merchants and later Great Profits, will be more than able to cover the costs for a substantial empire. Not to mention there's plenty of forests around for chopping.

My recommendations for initial strategy:

• Hybrid economy: Using commerce (cottages) for research, and specialists for the gold and espionage your empire needs. Has the advantage of the heavily specialized cities of an SE, without disadvantages of the late Liberalism/Democracy switch.
• Settle in Place
• Go for an Early religion, using the lake. Probably Meditation and Buddhism since I believe the AI favors M
• Initial Build Queue: Workboat - Worker - Warrior - Settler
• Initial Research Queue: Mining - Bronzeworking - Priesthood
• Build a Temple and run a priest specialist to get Great Prophets. Use the first on the Shrine
• Spread Buddhism to yourself your neighbors
• Later Research Queue: Pottery - Animal Handling - Writing - Masonry - Monotheism - Beeline to Currency
• Keep running a priest specialist. If you snag Judaism, build a second temple in your capital to add a second priest. Your third Great Prophet pops Theology. Switch to Merchant specialists.
• Build the Apostolic Palace, switching to Christianity at the last second so it's Christian. Switch back to Buddhism, and spread Christianity to your whole empire and finally to one city in each of your rivals.

After that, it depends upon the map. With luck, you can get Christianity to all your rivals, and vote yourself an early Diplomatic victory. Otherwise, I'd go domination. With the changes to Seige Warfare, Isabella has the advantage her Citadels and their +4 XP seige engines, making it possible for her to generate Level 4 seige engines, a huge advantage in going for an early domination win.

 

[Oko]

Spain on a Lake (tm) ?

 

[madscientist]

OK My advice

1) Settle in place.
2) The bare spot N of the settler is very likely Horse/Copper/Iron, so you will get ome good production there.
3) Utilize the lake and go after the early religion. Play to Isabella's strength.

Which Religion?
4A) Meditiation is faster, is needed for COL, and still allows the oracle path
4B) Polytheism gives you the backup plan of Monotheism and gives you the chance to oracle theology (WHich I do NOT suggest).

5) If you plan to chop out settler/workboats then you may now have enough forrests to nail both Stonehenge and Oracle. Make sure you get the oracle at least.
6) After early religion tech Mining/BW/AGR unless no copper is found.

That's my idea how to play it.

 

[patagonia]

Spain on a Lake (tm) ?

See Cuban Isolationists for more details.

Back to this game, I'm with the settle in place crowd. 1N is just plain daft as that'll land you on top of probably iron or horses, wasting the useful production from that tile. There's no real reason to move, especially as Izzy with a seafood start.

Early expansion will be slightly slower than usual, but I'd tech Poly first while building 2 workboats. Whether or not you get religion, the next two techs should be mining and bronze to open up chopping and whipping. By that point, Madrid should have grown enough to whip a worker with the expansive bonus, stick the overflow into a warrior or two and chop out a settler to found Barcelona.

If you've got bronze, you can delay techs like agriculture and AH, but otherwise you'll want to go looking for horses for some chariot defense.

I think stonehenge is a mistake - it's only 2GPP and Madrid will be investing a good chunk of its hammer cost in workboats instead. This game may only be on Monarch, but with plans to move to Emperor it'd be a good idea to start prioritising production. With the Oracle and a temple priest, you'll get your first GP in 30 turns which is pretty reasonable. Build a shrine and you can hire 3 more priests in the holy city (either Madrid with Hinduism or elsewhere with Christianity).

On the subject of the long-term goal of the AP and a religious victory (and Izzy being Christian), remember that the AP religion is set to your state religion at the time you complete it. As Izzy, it'd be a good tactic to try to grab one of the early religions, get a shrine and spread it about to make money from the AI. Found Christianity yourself, spam missionaries to get it into your own cities and then swap state religions the turn before the AP is completed. Two religions are better than one anyway - double the happy from temples, double the research bonus from monasteries, double the potential culture and shrine income.

 

[Mu'min]

I would also go with settling in place.
The sea food will allow you to grow quickly, and you can work/chop the trees for hammers. But you won't be able to high food and high production at the same time with what you got in your BFC. You can have high food and low hammers or high hammers and low food or medium food and hammers by working a calm and a forest tile. Either way in the beginning, until your city grows, you will have to choose between growing quickly and grapping a tech early or building something quickly and growing slowly and being last in tech.

IMO the square 1N is likely to hold a metal, i think horses tend to appear in more open terrain, but i would have to generate a few maps and check that.

Lastly, grab an early religion, they all have the same effect, you don't have to get christianity. You get all the same buildings with the same modifers no matter what religion you get. So get a early religion, build a shrine in your capital and make it your commerce city, and spread to everyone else.

 

[slobberinbear]

Lastly, grab an early religion, they all have the same effect, you don't have to get christianity. You get all the same buildings with the same modifers no matter what religion you get. So get a early religion, build a shrine in your capital and make it your commerce city, and spread to everyone else.

Sisiutil wanted Christianity for the full Izzy flavor. Plus, the Apostolic Palace requires Theology anyway.

No question an early religion has its benefits, though. If he works the lake tile first he may be able to grab Polyhinduism and eventually build a temple and work a priest specialist for GPPs. Doing this would also save a prophet on bulbing Theology. Skipping Stonehenge, though, will require the building of monuments, because a religion can't reliably spread and give border pops without a shrine, organized religion, or monasteries.

Besides, Sisiutil has enough lumber on this start for Stonehenge, the Oracle, and a few settlers when combined with judicious whipping.

 

[ori]

As Kmad already pointed out - you seem to suffer from a known graphics glitch that draws hills as plains, so I post a screenshot of the starting position with hills visible
Note you have 1 grass and 1 plains hill in the starting fat cross and the partly fogged tile 2 S of the Settler seems to be a plains hill as well (the trees are curved in a way suggesting that) - so plenty of production

 

[madscientist]

With extra production form the hidden hills I say you can defeinitely get Sonehenge and ORacle. An Ideal Isabella start

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

As the last monarch-level game Sisiutil plays, this is a fitting leader and a fitting start.

By fitting, I meant, this is really not a good start at all. I know it looks great but it's not.

- Forests can build you a worker, a settler and a stonehenge. Not enough for Oracle obviously, and you really don't have any hills around you at all. Your regular production is so aweful that even slavery takes a long time before buildings and units go into whipping range.
- No rivers nearby. You've got a lake, which means two land tiles in total which will net you a food gain. Now you may ask why do you need more food when you have rice and two fish. My answer is, with all these plains tiles and not next to rivers, you've got a weak late-game capital.
- you need to clear land for forests and you don't have mining. Normally not starting with mining and having to found a religion is not too much of a burden, but with all these forests lying around...
- Your first worker will be late, that's for sure, since you'll be building fishing boats anyway. Your entire empire will be slow in the coming. All the forests also means you don't seem to be getting any strategic resources, so you might end up having barbarians hiding in forests next to your capital. You better pray your second city has strategic resources.
- But then the question is, how are you going to SEE those strategic resources? You don't have agriculture either, so no animal husbandary for you.

Games are usually winnable on Monarch, obviously, but for those that believe this game will be a walk in the park, think again. Carefully.

 

[Ankh]

As Kmad already pointed out - you seem to suffer from a known graphics glitch that draws hills as plains, so I post a screenshot of the starting position with hills visible

This glitch happens when you regenerate the map instead of going back to the meny and start a new game. If you save and reload the game the hills should appear again.

 

[madscientist]

As the last monarch-level game Sisiutil plays, this is a fitting leader and a fitting start.

By fitting, I meant, this is really not a good start at all. I know it looks great but it's not.

- Forests can build you a worker, a settler and a stonehenge. Not enough for Oracle obviously, and you really don't have any hills around you at all. Your regular production is so aweful that even slavery takes a long time before buildings and units go into whipping range.
- No rivers nearby. You've got a lake, which means two land tiles in total which will net you a food gain. Now you may ask why do you need more food when you have rice and two fish. My answer is, with all these plains tiles and not next to rivers, you've got a weak late-game capital.
- you need to clear land for forests and you don't have mining. Normally not starting with mining and having to found a religion is not too much of a burden, but with all these forests lying around...
- Your first worker will be late, that's for sure, since you'll be building fishing boats anyway. Your entire empire will be slow in the coming. All the forests also means you don't seem to be getting any strategic resources, so you might end up having barbarians hiding in forests next to your capital. You better pray your second city has strategic resources.
- But then the question is, how are you going to SEE those strategic resources? You don't have agriculture either, so no animal husbandary for you.

Games are usually winnable on Monarch, obviously, but for those that believe this game will be a walk in the park, think again. Carefully.

Because of the regen problem, looks liek there are going to be minable hill in the BFC. I am pretty sure the blank grassalnd is a hidden resource, also goof for production. Three good food sources.

Not an easy game but a Classic start for the leader. A little luck with the north grassland as copper and it's as good as you can get. No rivers is the biggest problem, but there is fresh water.

 

[slobberinbear]

As the last monarch-level game Sisiutil plays, this is a fitting leader and a fitting start.

By fitting, I meant, this is really not a good start at all. I know it looks great but it's not.

Um, three food sources, a likely hidden strategic resource and lots of trees. This is a perfectly fine start. Is it the uber corn n' gold start? No, but Sisiutil already passed on that kind of start.

- Forests can build you a worker, a settler and a stonehenge. Not enough for Oracle obviously, and you really don't have any hills around you at all. Your regular production is so aweful that even slavery takes a long time before buildings and units go into whipping range.

Combined with whipping, there are plenty of trees for both wonders and two settlers. Also, he has at least two hills (possibly three) under the trees. Those mined hills combined with the rice, clams, and the lake (with a lighthouse) results in food, hammers, and commerce all at once.

- No rivers nearby. You've got a lake, which means two land tiles in total which will net you a food gain. Now you may ask why do you need more food when you have rice and two fish. My answer is, with all these plains tiles and not next to rivers, you've got a weak late-game capital.

Weak? With this city he can go SE, CE, or hybrid economy. Moving the capitol is always an option, but weak?

you need to clear land for forests and you don't have mining. Normally not starting with mining and having to found a religion is not too much of a burden, but with all these forests lying around...

Well he has 30+ turns to tech to BW while he's building fishing boats. It's not as if he has nothing useful to produce and no tiles to work.

- Your first worker will be late, that's for sure, since you'll be building fishing boats anyway. Your entire empire will be slow in the coming. All the forests also means you don't seem to be getting any strategic resources, so you might end up having barbarians hiding in forests next to your capital. You better pray your second city has strategic resources.

Well the worker would be delayed anyway by the building of the work boat(s). This buys him time to tech to BW. And it's a good possibility that the tile 1N has a good resource hidden.

- But then the question is, how are you going to SEE those strategic resources? You don't have agriculture either, so no animal husbandary for you.

If it's copper, it will be visible soon. If it's iron or horses, yes, it will be awhile. If there is no nearby copper, Sisiutil may have to get archery to be safe.

Games are usually winnable on Monarch, obviously, but for those that believe this game will be a walk in the park, think again. Carefully.

I like a little drama in my posts, too. But really, nobody said it would be easy. There is cause for encouragement by the start, though, because it will give us an opportunity to have the religion-oriented/AP game we discussed in the pre-game thread.

 

[KMadCandy]

As Kmad already pointed out - you seem to suffer from a known graphics glitch that draws hills as plains, so I post a screenshot of the starting position with hills visible

yeah that's it, i was pointing out the known problem. we'll pretend that i knew about it too *giggle*. anyway, i showed you up borrowed your idea and put a screenshot, with hills showing like hills and with tile yields on, in post #2 of this thread, so that folks can see it right after they see S's original one. we can help him with the pictures . if he tries to turn it into an SG tho, no way, you gotta take the rounds, i ain't playing a game here where everybody can see it

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

I'd settle 1N. Settling there would allow enough forests for chopping, and decent food for a good GP farm.

But hey, I play Warlord. So don't take my advice too seriously.

 

[Fierabras]

Settle in place and Meditation first gives Buddhism for sure (on Epic I think that should take 12 turns). It's the safest bet to found a religion. Any other choice involves risk.

hmmmm....I just checked the safe and Meditation takes 13 turns, which means Meditation first is actually very risky. Only 12 turns is a 100% sure thing (working an oasis-3c-tile or financial trait and 2c-tile).

 

[Meister]

I say settle in place

Anyway,what kind of city should Madrid be?

There are many national wonders you can choose...What I think are -- Moai Statue,National Epic,Wall Street,Ironworks,National Park

The latter three require more planning though.

You want a late super GP farm?Holy money city?Decent production city(Moai with lumbermills are not bad)?Or mixed combination?

In one of my games,I had a similar start like yours -- with one odd tile without forest and hill,completely surrounded by forests with enough food to work all tiles,and coastal start

Finally,I made it my uber GP farm(National Epic and National Park),as I conquered a double holy city,which has about 8-9 water tiles(Wall St.and Moai were built)

 

[ratrangerm]

Count me in for settling in place. I'd suspect there is a strategic resource on that grassland square... while settling on top of it is nice, I really prefer being able to improve grassland tiles with a strategic resource to get the hammer benefit.

With all the forest, I'd say forgoing Poly to start is a good plan and go the Mining/BW path. Then, even though there was the talk about just going straight to Christianity, I'd give Monotheism a shot. After that, go right to Priesthood.

You don't need Agriculture right away... yes, there is the Rice, but you can work both seafood tiles for your food, and after chopping and mining a grassland hill and a plains hill, you get yourself enough production and you can whip from there.

Ideally, you'd want to start Stonehenge as soon as you get a Worker out. I'd get a Work Boat first, a Warrior, then another Work Boat (the second one can be whipped as you should have BW by then) and get that Worker started so you can chop Stonehenge. You should then be able to get a Warrior and Settler out for a second city and then chop Oracle by that time.