ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[slobberinbear]

hilled protective archers

3*(2.85) = 8.55 str... you' probably be facing 3 or 4 of those :S.

The losses seem too great in my opinion, Construction isn't far away wait till then but take any of his secondary cities if he decides to expand they'll be lightly defended, with zero culture and 2 archers probably. If you do use those 16 Axeman and lose 12 of them in capturing the Capital how many hammers did you sacrifice for a sub optimal location? 35H*12= 420H that's 80 hammers less then the Pyramids or AP. :S

Well, a freshly-built CR I swordsman is 6*(1.3) = 7.8. With Cover, it's 8.1. Not a total mismatch there. And his current promoted axes could be CR I / Cover promoted, which is 5*1.45 = 7.25. Of course the archers get 1 or 2 first strikes with Drill I. I think it's entirely reasonable for him to lose twice as many units as he defeats in order to take out an opponent.

His 18 current axes & spears plus a few new swords are plenty. And, frankly, they are costing about half of his current maintenance costs. They are there to be used. Taking Vienna now will also provide some much-needed cash to finance deficit researching to get Currency online and buy time for the cottage spam to kick in.

Waiting for construction gives Charlie more time to REX.

I am generally too conservative in my own games. I've always been partial to swords, catapults, and the Stack of Doom. The ALC series has taught me to be more aggressive. There is value in defeating your opponent quickly.

 

[kniteowl]

Well, a freshly-built CR I swordsman is 6*(1.3) = 7.8. With Cover, it's 8.1. Not a total mismatch there. And his current promoted axes could be CR I / Cover promoted, which is 5*1.45 = 7.25. Of course the archers get 1 or 2 first strikes with Drill I. I think it's entirely reasonable for him to lose twice as many units as he defeats in order to take out an opponent.

His 18 current axes & spears plus a few new swords are plenty. And, frankly, they are costing about half of his current maintenance costs. They are there to be used. Taking Vienna now will also provide some much-needed cash to finance deficit researching to get Currency online and buy time for the cottage spam to kick in.

Waiting for construction gives Charlie more time to REX.

I am generally too conservative in my own games. I've always been partial to swords, catapults, and the Stack of Doom. The ALC series has taught me to be more aggressive. There is value in defeating your opponent quickly.

lol Actually the str comparisons are different read Combat Explained by Arathorn in the War academy.

the only bonus that is added to the attacker are combat and Drill promotions, all other promotions are either Subtracted or added to the defender dependoing who'd bonuses out weigh the other.

Assuming the archer gets, 50% natural defense, 25% Fortify, 40% culture, 25% Hill terrain defense, 25% Archer Bonus on hill, and 20% From CG1.

and the Axe gets CR1 then then CR1 bonus is subtracted from the archers bonus the it'll more likely be like this.

3*(2.65) = 7.95 str vs 5 str

vs CR2 Axemen

3*(2.4) = 7.2 str vs 5 str

vs CR1 Swordsmen

3*(2.55) = 7.65 str vs 6 str

Go to world builder and check for yourself.

I know it's good to be aggressive early but it's getting a bit late now in my opinion and the Axe rush is starting to get obsolete when Construction and swords are so close... besides, whether we wait or attack now, Charlie is already dead, I say only attack any secondary cities he settles and leave the capital alone until Construction, we've lost enough Axeman and hammers attacking the first two cities already, it's time for economic builds and consolidate. although there are probably players like you who may want to push the envelope a little further, I'm not saying it's wrong, but the cost just seem way too high in my opinion especially where the city is settled, not saying it's a bad city, but I would've preferred the double gold. If you do attack Sisiutil I suggest that you bring a settler with you, but there are probably others who wouldn't want you to waste more hammers on a settler and just except that city.

Hm... we're only 1 XP away from a GG, since Charlie is Imp you think he has a Great General with him somewhere? If he does I hope he settles and not attach it to an Archer with CG3, Melee and Guerilla Promotions.. :S

 

[Gocho]

His current stack is enough to take the last city and killing a bunch of them off with ease his economy a bit as well.

Don't let Charlemagne spam his settlers as he LOVES to do!

 

[slobberinbear]

lol Actually the str comparisons are different read Combat Explained by Arathorn in the War academy....

I stand corrected. However, to steal one of Sisiutil's pet phrases, I don't play with a calculator, and in the future I'll refrain from using specific numbers in my posts, since my grasp of Civ math is obviously fuzzy.

My point was simply that, given the large number of costly troops Sisiutil has on hand right now, it's not a total mismatch and worth a shot to try to defeat Charlie sooner than later without waiting for catapults. This is supported by Sisiutil's own experience in this very game. Twice he has attacked cities with a decent defense, taken losses, but won the battle. Vienna has a lower cultural defense but is on a hill. This makes it only slightly tougher than Aachen was, even accounting for the hill bonus and the archer/hill defense bonus.

I'm not saying it would be a cakewalk, just that the benefits outweigh the costs. Losing 4-8 axes is worth taking out a foe. Those hammers are already spent, and to wait longer means investing even more hammers in taking him out later.

 

[Cornhog]

First off, how are these ALC comments supposed to work? I took a slightly different path, and I'm ahead of Sis. It is 550 AD now. It seems like cheating to advise him now because I've "seen into the future."

However, I did restart a couple times. Mostly cause I was trying to get the Oracle and the HRC capital as early as you did. I tried a bunch of times, I can't manage to do it. Frankly, I dunno how you did it. So I said to hell with your way, I'm doing it my way. Slower but it seems to be working well.

I'm not big on restarting but I don't think it de-legitimized my game much here since I restarted at about 1000 BC. Plus, I restarted the time I popped mining and bronze working from two goody huts.

Well, I'll tell you what I've done up to this point. I took a slower approach. Like you I grabbed Hinduism first. (On a side note, you really should try playing with pick your religion. It makes for a more diverse and interesting game I think.)

I founded my first city in that stretch of desert to the SW between the corn and the cows. I was going to found a third city where you founded your second, but barbarians beat me to it. I still haven't taken the city. I used my two cities to pump out a larger axeman army and sent it toward their capital. I didn't do any of the fancy-smancy worker stealing.

Anyway, they had three cities by the time I attacked. The capital, Prague, and a city one tile NW of your barbarian city. I got the Oracle in 550 BC and took COL - someone beat me to Confucianism though. I then began researching construction.

I took over all of HRC by the point you're at. That's the three original cities plus another that's founded where your Vienna is. I didn't use catapults or get especially lucky. It was numbers and a Medic III GG. After awhile, my axes go to the point where I had 60% odds on the fortified archers. Each city usually had a pair of archers and maybe a chariot or two.

Anyway, my next piece of advice would be to definitely take Vienna Beyond that, I'm not sure if I should tell you what I did. I'm not sure if my way is any better though. I doubt I'm gonna get to be Pope. Plus I'm in a bit of a depression at the moment I think I'll come out of it fine, but if I wanna be Pope, I'm probably gonna have to march down into Maya and steal his big silly hat.

 

[Molon Labe]

Take Charlie out now. If you don't, he will be a huge nuisance spamming settlers and engendering warm fuzzy feelings with other civs that will get you demerits every time you attack him and don't finish him off.

That city on a hill can be taken, protective or not. It will hurt, but probably not as bad as you fear. Build swords and send them with that big army you already have and hit it before it gets a big cultural defense.

WWID?

 

[carl corey]

Charlie's last city doesn't have any religion in it. That means he'll most probably (have to?) switch out of Buddhism. Not sure if it's enough not to earn you a demerit with Pacal when you declare again.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I would go straight for construction and delay the attack until you have 5-6 catapults.

It is too risky attacking now.

Then again if it works you are well on your way to victory.

It's your call on the risk

 

[teamdresch]

How about getting a spy into Vienna to take down the cultural defenses?

 

[Indiansmoke]

How about a spy to destroy the iron improvement once it is built?

 

[Scarredroman]

At the rate Charlie canspam settlers, waiting just gives him more time to produce them.He could have produced 2 before you get to Vienna and have a third on the build. He'll have a couple of workers in one of his cities. I think you're correct in wanting to take a settler along to refound the city where you want it to be.

I think you're right to want to take out the barb city and raze it, with a settler you have on hand.

I don't think you can wait until you have currency to trade and expect to have founded Christianity. If you know Pacal has monotheism and you have something to trade, making buddhism your state religion should send him to pleased and willing to trade. Failing that, I'd suggest switching to research the tech.

If Madrid receives confucianism, it can build another temple and have another priest specialist. One reason Gandhi is such a tech maestro is that 5 relgions is 5 monasteries in every city plus a library is a 75% boost to research. You've got a chance to do something similar. 5 priest specialists from 5 temples doesn't hurt the GP production either.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Letting Charlie spam settlers might not be that bad, after all these cities will be yours easily after construction.

Spies can prevent him from working iron meanwhile.

Your biggest problem is the tech rate at the momment, so I would focus on reasearch, bult a few swords just before construction and attack with catapults.

 

[oyzar]

With the amount of troops you have there is no reason for delaying taking out charlie... cities dont need defenders unless there is a danger they are going to be attacked or they are near the happy cap.

 

[madscientist]

Great game so far, a few comemtns about the game and some posts

1) As far as shadowing, which I tried (and failed at), I think it si best not to mention anything about what is to come.

2) First to Theology is the major focus of this game and controling the AP will put in a much stronger position regardless of the victory condition you seek. Use that first prophet to bulb theology, forget currency for the moment and tech Monotheism. You will need the head start on building the AP palace (as I said before, someone else has monotheism ahead of you and is closer to theology than you are, and it's not Charles).

3) As I see it there are three ways to deal with Vienna, Axe/Sword rush with heavy losses, wait for construction and take it out with cats, build the capital in Archan and switch to Buddhism to use slow cultural pressure on the city. You can still make friends since you share the same religion and can get the civics advantage eventually with vassalage. But my suggestion is to take him out now.

4) How does city raider swords match to CG II archers.

As I understand, a city raider II negates CG II archers, so it is The Swordsman 6 (+10% base versus cities) aganist archer 3 (plus culture (60%?)/hill benefits/wall/natural archer edge) which would be 3 (+160%). I think that will end up sword 6 versus archer 7.5, plus Drill I archer. Not impossible.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree with mad scientist on point 1 & 2.

On points 3&4 I would say that archers have first strikes as well, there is a chance that the first few axes will do minimal damage to them because of that.

Also teching is already slow. Whipping swords to attack quickly will delay growth even further. I would go for growth and courthouses instead until construction. Maybe tech monotheism as suggested and addopt organized religion.

 

[Chrispy]

I agree about using the prophet for Theology to get to the Apostolic Palace. While it may not be for a quick AP victory, the power of the AP can still be seen in its treatment of others.

Plus, with 3 religions founded and the potential for Christianity along with the Apostolic Palace to stop wars and manipulate opponents, cultural becomes a viable option. If you like Cultural as an idea, going for Music is a priority for both the Artist and the Sistine Chapel, which has been improved in BtS.

I think the best place to use the Confucian missionary is Madrid to get another temple and another priest in there. Getting the second prophet will help the economy with the Buddhist shrine.

OTOH, if Cultural is an option, then adding Confucionism to Prague should send the Christian holy city to Aachen or Barcelona while you send Buddhism to Madrid. If you can swing it, maneuvering the Christian holy city to Aachen makes the most sense since that's the best Wall Street candidate.

 

[slobberinbear]

Letting Charlie spam settlers might not be that bad, after all these cities will be yours easily after construction.

Spies can prevent him from working iron meanwhile.

Your biggest problem is the tech rate at the momment, so I would focus on reasearch, bult a few swords just before construction and attack with catapults.

Charlemagne is on the ropes. It's time to knock him out. 10 turns of enforced peace is plenty of time for Sisiutil to marshal his 18 axes and spears, throw in a sword or two, and take Charlie all the way out.

Charlie is protective and will likely start gunning for Feudalism. Then we'll have to deal with protective longbows on hilled cities. Also, a later war will by necessity be a longer war. That means more war weariness and less focus on the economy and building caravels of religious domination.

This is a short-term (very short-term) problem that can be solved with brute force, and the good news is that Sisiutil already has most of the necessary brute force on hand.

 

[Guardian_PL]

One up for Slobberinbear advice. I mean, so many axes?? That's a terrible strain on economy. I understand they are useful and stuff, but unless his last city isn't on 60% defence it's all doable, and with Charlemagne the longer You play with him, the more of a nuisance this guy can be (yeah, longbows )

Also, Theology and AP is a bit urgent, quite often I've got beaten to AP, other civ's like to build it too. And You're not Industious.
So get HRE out of the way, pop Theology with GP, build AP and relax, building temples etc half price, while receiving +2 hammers for each AP building

PS. Although it's heavy, by popping Theology You're one step closer to Spiral Minaret Religious gameplay is fun!

 

[Thyrwyn]

[Haven't looked at the save, so some of this may be speculation]

Take out Charlie. Even if you raze the city. The Iron is a non-issue (the city is at size 2, he has no workers and no time to mine&road it by the time peace expires). Since he has no workers, he will probably build one 1st during peace (right?).

If you feel the need:
1) switch research to Mono, mine your own iron, que up swordsmen in barracks cities. [This is the speculation part - can you research Mono in <10 turns? At 19 beakers/turn, I think so, but I don't know the tech cost for these settings.]
2) Put something else in front of the swordsmen when the swords are 2 turns from done.
3) When Mono comes in, burn the Prophet on Theology, switch to theocracy, move 2 swords to the front of each que, and pop rush your swordsmen.
4) Declare war that turn and pillage/occupy all of his farms/food. This will keep him from rushing any more defenders.
5) camp out on his food/iron until your CR II Swordsmen arrive.

 

[TheArchduke]

How about getting a spy into Vienna to take down the cultural defenses?

A good suggestions, works wonders.