ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[pax]

Looking at the map of your continent, it seems like the civs proceed like this:

HRE -> England -> Maya

with Sitting Bull not even on your continent.

I say you use Isabella for a succession of crusades. First, ensure that the HRE is neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire by wiping it out. Then, get Pacal and Sitting Bull on the same page, religion-wise. Make sure that Lizzie is *not* on that same page. Build the AP. Declare war on heathen Elizabeth and build a new Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land. Lizzie's now getting it from both ends, er, border-wise. She may fight you on the beaches, etc, but she'll fall.

Now you've got you, Pacal and Sitting Bull. If you're daring, you can try the same thing all over again with Pacal. Get him to convert to something else. You and Sitting Bull declare. Lather, rinse, repeat. To get this done, I'd recommend not overly spreading your religion from Continental War I. Perhaps let Pacal maintain his Buddhism, while converting (barely) Sitting Bull. Once you're ready for Continental War II, convert to Hinduism and and get SB to follow. Pacal will be annoyed, you and SB can get together and decide to run a crusade. The dicey part here is balancing the friendship between SB and Pacal (mutual military struggle) against their growing animosity (different religions). If you're lucky, some random events might help.

 

[Scaphism]

Amazing! I did the fist pump and I was grinning like a fool when I saw you take Vienna. Had any of my co-workers been around to see it I would have gotten some very strange looks.

I think you want to attack now. Barbs aren't really a problem - you can whip emergency defenders if needed.
Theocracy (2 promotions) + Swords and Cats sound appealing, but a long war is a bad idea. You don't want to get into any quagmires, do you?

The next couple hundred years are going to be rough on the fledgling Spanish empire, but in the end everyone will all be dazzled by your brilliance.

A list of your priorities(as I see them):

#1: Monotheism, so you can bulb Theology (with your current prophet) and start on the Apostolic Palace (in Madrid I think). I think it's a real stretch, but it *might* be possible to have a Christian empire still. There aren't too many cities with religion in them yet, are there? You could do it with a dedicated missionary-spam city. With a Jewish bloc on the other continent you could even have an authentic Inquisition...
2: Eliminate Charlemagne. If you can get 15 of your axes over there it should be enough, though you should scout if possible. Check if Open Borders is possible. Bring a settler - getting 2 gold in the BFC is too tempting.
3: Backfill. Whip granaries. Whip workers. They are still 25% cheaper. Whip a lot of workers if needed. They are going to have a lot to do the entire game, between cottaging and roading your current empire and eventually clearing the jungle to the SW.
4: Settle the floodplain city S of Vienna. This is a small concern because Liz is nearby.

Your research is a fairly low priority once Monotheism is done and you've popped Theology. Your biggest bottleneck for the next thousand years is going to be hammers, hammers, and more hammers. Having Currency is great, you may end up building gold briefly to sustain yourself.
Thankfully you have a lot of good city sites, many of them coastal and many of them great sites with rivers in them, spaced in a loogical manner with good food. It really is an attractive continent. Just remember that you can't have whip too many workers - there are a lot of improvements/cottages to be built!

Amazing job so far, I really like Spain's flavor and this game is shaping up to be exciting.

 

[Cornhog]

Heh, this thread picks up when everyone is at work. I have a question though. Are you gunning for the Popehouse just because you want to work in some religious-heathen-bashing-Spanish flavor? With your setup, it will be easy for you to get elected pope without building it. At this point I believe you have all the religions. If you take out Charlie, then you'll (presumably) have more room to expand than most of the other civs. That means you'll have more cities with the religion. That means you have more votes, and that means all hail Pope Sisiutil I.

Other than roleplaying fun, I don't see much of a reason to be the guy that builds the Vatican in this case. I could very well be wrong though.

 

[madscientist]

Heh, this thread picks up when everyone is at work. I have a question though. Are you gunning for the Popehouse just because you want to work in some religious-heathen-bashing-Spanish flavor? With your setup, it will be easy for you to get elected pope without building it. At this point I believe you have all the religions. If you take out Charlie, then you'll (presumably) have more room to expand than most of the other civs. That means you'll have more cities with the religion. That means you have more votes, and that means all hail Pope Sisiutil I.

Other than roleplaying fun, I don't see much of a reason to be the guy that builds the Vatican in this case. I could very well be wrong though.

I believe Judaism is unaccounted for.

 

[Percy]

And also, if you want an AP win, you don't want the religion to be spread. You want to be the only one with it, and that means controlling the AP.

 

[Sisiutil]

Out of curiosity do you play most of your offline games at monarch?

I used to, I'm starting to play at Emperor now. It's tough! I can win, but I often have to The next ALC will move up to that level

First off, how are these ALC comments supposed to work? I took a slightly different path, and I'm ahead of Sis. It is 550 AD now. It seems like cheating to advise him now because I've "seen into the future."

No spoilers in this thread, please. I would suggest that those of you playing shadow games start a parallel thread, as has been done in the past. However, once the game is done in this thread, I like to hear how the shadow games went--they provide a very useful comparison.

How about getting a spy into Vienna to take down the cultural defenses?

Brilliant! And I'm kicking myself for not doing that with Prague. D'OH! Just an example of me getting used to that new BtS option. That will help a lot.

[Haven't looked at the save, so some of this may be speculation]

Take out Charlie. Even if you raze the city. The Iron is a non-issue (the city is at size 2, he has no workers and no time to mine&road it by the time peace expires). Since he has no workers, he will probably build one 1st during peace (right?).

If you feel the need:
1) switch research to Mono, mine your own iron, que up swordsmen in barracks cities. [This is the speculation part - can you research Mono in <10 turns? At 19 beakers/turn, I think so, but I don't know the tech cost for these settings.]
2) Put something else in front of the swordsmen when the swords are 2 turns from done.
3) When Mono comes in, burn the Prophet on Theology, switch to theocracy, move 2 swords to the front of each que, and pop rush your swordsmen.
4) Declare war that turn and pillage/occupy all of his farms/food. This will keep him from rushing any more defenders.
5) camp out on his food/iron until your CR II Swordsmen arrive.

I'm pretty sure at least one, possibly two of Charlie's workers evaded my units after the fall of Prague.

I agree with the consensus that I should switch research to Monotheism and then use the GP for Theology. The AP will get built in Aachen, the future Spanish capital, as it has the most forests available for chopping.

Heh, this thread picks up when everyone is at work. I have a question though. Are you gunning for the Popehouse just because you want to work in some religious-heathen-bashing-Spanish flavor? With your setup, it will be easy for you to get elected pope without building it. At this point I believe you have all the religions. If you take out Charlie, then you'll (presumably) have more room to expand than most of the other civs. That means you'll have more cities with the religion. That means you have more votes, and that means all hail Pope Sisiutil I.

Other than roleplaying fun, I don't see much of a reason to be the guy that builds the Vatican in this case. I could very well be wrong though.

The problem is that Judaism was founded elsewhere; it ain't mine. So the AP could go to the Jewish contingent. Playing with the AP, probably the biggest of the new wonders in BtS, was one of the main goals of this game.

And furthermore, you try to tell Isabella she can't have her big shiny religious palace! I had to listen to her describing, in graphic detail for nearly an hour, what the glorious Spanish Inquisition used to do with heretics like you, and comfy chairs were not mentioned. Good thing she doesn't know where you live. Yet.

 

[Scaphism]

Re: Spying. A spy is a good idea - the hammers invested in 1 spy will save you at least 1 axe per defender.
You may want to devote all of your EPs to Charlemagne in the short term. (And it will be short.) It's hardly a scientific analysis, but from what I've seen the AI tends to match your EP spending pretty closely. So if you focus all of your efforts on one opponent they will ramp up their espionage spending versus you.

Other civs will try and get the advantage over you, but they rarely go overboard and have a ridiculous percentage against you (unless you are the out-and-out leader).

By focusing on just one victim for your spying in the meantime you're aiming for 3 things: See current research, See into his city (and # of units/maybe even settlers?), and reducing the cost of missions against him. I don't know if outspending him will improve your chance of successfully inciting a revolt but I do know it will make it cheaper.

Don't rely on just 1 spy though, bring at least 2 in case the first fails to incite a revolt.

 

[Porphyrius]

Things are still right on track and everything, but i am a bit curious about how you handled the war this round with Charlie.

I mean how excactly you missed his settler heading to found Vienna. You did maintain at least 2-3 axes around Prague to pillage and keep an eye on Charlies reaction, didnt you?

And what urged you towards a peace treaty? Prolonging an ineffective war or the techs? Cause it seems to me you value early , cheap fillback techs a bit to much of an opportunity. I mean in BTS you could even steal them for mere pittance.

Not that there is much risk taking Charlie out now. Just somewhat more costly in .

As far as using spies its a bit early to use them efficiently. Still if you 're delivering the final blow you might as well make use of what spy points you allready spent.



Do focus on getting Monotheism/Theology and the AP but keep expanding. i mean CoL is all you REALLY need to keep expanding and the AP is just tying up one city.
And i like the plan of AP centered holy havoc far more than a cheap religious victory, just like most anybody else i guess.

 

[civ4legs]

How about getting a spy into Vienna to take down the cultural defenses?

I agree completely! I have had GREAT success with this technique (which is obviously greatly aided by getting the great wall and popping a great spy). With Charlie's "empire" so small, it should be pretty easy to build up enough espionage points the hard way to trigger a revolt. The odds are often around 75%, which is a bit too low for me to feel comfortable with, so I will often try to have a couple spies on hand.

 

[Black_Waltz]

Seems I'm in the minority, but I would say shrine with GP. But then again that could be me over-estimating the income since I play on huge maps.

 

[carl corey]

For now there aren't too many cities with either religion. The shrine income in my opinion isn't worth it. I go with a shrine that early only if I don't get another great prophet (for example the city that got it was just a production city that built a wonder but won't house any specialists). In Sisiutil's case he'll get other chances to build a shrine, and it will be more lucrative later. Getting Theology and building the Apostolic Palace for its hammer benefits may be the best solution.

 

[Tyrael]

Definately bring along a spy or two to perform what I like to call the "Reverse Culture Bomb". Catapults are SO last expansion. Spies are t3h new hotness.

 

[Welnic]

Since people have been knocking the Challenge part of All Leaders Challenge, I think for this game ALC should mean Adopt Leader Characteristics. You should seek to become Isabella, spread the one true religion and smite the heathens. Of course, it would be okay to spread another religion deliberately in order to choose who the heathens will be.

 

[Scarredroman]

Courthouses give espionage points and spy specialist, but you need Scotland Yard to build them and only a Great Spy or Communism will let you do that. It's unlikely that Sisiutil will have the time to generate a Great Spy in time to take out Charlie.

 

[Percy]

Huh? What are you saying you need Scotland Yard for? And anyway, you're wrong, since nothing needs SY to be built =P

 

[Scarredroman]

An active spy mission needs a spy in the city. You're correct you don't need Scotland Yard to build spies, my bad, but you do need to have researched Writing to build spies. The question therefore is is there enough time to build the units and also a spy.

 

[Winston Hughes]

the AP, probably the biggest of the new wonders in BtS

From my limited experience of it (2 games and some WB tests), and what I've read of others' experiences, the AP is potentially the most powerful wonder in the game.

Spoiler :

Aside from the chance to win the game early, it offers up a chance to utterly screw your opponents whilst keeping yourself nice and safe. Throw in bonus from the appropriate buildings (worth the asking price on its own in some games) and you've got an absolute monster.

Of course, unlike other wonders (except the UN) it has the drawback that building it doesn't mean you get to use it (though you can always get the bonus hammers). But, unlike the UN, it's not that difficult (which is not to say easy) to give yourself a commanding position in the elections.

The synergy with the SoU and SM is another plus point - every city can get a total of +4 +4 +4 from just a temple and a monastery!

Clearly, the key to making the most of the AP is controlling the spread and adoption of religion to keep yourself in the driving seat and your greatest rivals in the heretic club.

Two consequences of this are:

1) Having multiple religions early on will make things a lot easier. You'll want the AP religion in all of your cities, so you're not likely to get religions spreading to you from abroad. And you'll want to keep the AP religion from spreading too much in AI cities, so the ability to spread other religions is a big advantage.

2) Building a shrine for the AP religion could be a bad move early on. You need to control its spread as much as possible.

You really do have the perfect opportunity to show off what this wonder can do. Aside from the expansion and development of your nascent empire (the whole vertical/horizontal bit), your greatest priority now should be preparing the ground for Isabella's rise to the papal throne.

Leave nothing to chance - build the palace yourself at the earliest chance, and get those missionaries out there asap (on my last game I used one of my weaker cities as a missionary pump). And for Buddha's sake make sure you're in the right religion when you build it!

ps. Great post (and solid plan) from pax - made me

 

[Scaphism]

You need Alphabet to build spies, and with 18 axemen sitting around I don't think he needs to build many more units (besides the spies).

The hammer investment is definitely worthwhile - a spy is 40 hammers compared with an axeman's 35.

Building 1(really 2) spies ought to save him at a minimum 4 axes, and those hammers won't be wasted; if successful in their mission they can then be used on other civs for future missions.

 

[Scarredroman]

Manual says Writing, Cviilopedia says alphabet. If a spy inifltrates a city, that consumes the spy.

The builds are for swords and spears and archers. The spy mission cost is not determined until inside enemy territory and there may not be the points to perform said mission.

 

[Percy]

Manual says Writing, Cviilopedia says alphabet. If a spy inifltrates a city, that consumes the spy.

You seem to be very confused on the spy thing.
It definitely needs Alphabet, not Writing.
"Infiltrate" is only available to Great Spies, who are Great People (produced the same way as other types: Scientists, Prophets, Merchants, Artists, Engineers). This action, infiltrate, gives you a number of Espionage Points against the civilization which owns the city you infiltrated.
The Spy unit is a regular unit, like a Worker or an Axeman. This unit can perform a number of missions, each costing a number of espionage points. "Support City Revolt" is a mission which eliminates the Cultural Defense of a city for a turn, allowing for easier attacks. When a Spy tries a mission, he can a) fail in his mission and get caught OR b) succeeds in his mission and get caught OR c) succeeds with his mission and return safely to the capital. A Spy can also be detected and "killed" for every turn he spends in enemy territory. I am not aware of the exact mechanisms and calculations behind all that.