ALC Game 20 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Ragnar

[Shoot the Moon]

I'll probably look to exploit Hunting by building a Scout or two to try to explore as much terrain as possible, and to try to beat the AI to some tribal villages.

Remember, your on an archipelago and will start with a scout. I doubt there will be enough room on your island to need to build another scout.

 

[shyuhe]

With low seas and archipelago, what land mass setting are you going to use? That can make a huge difference in how the game plays out. I personally prefer snaky continents on medium seas normally for war games but the land masses will be too large with low seas. Tiny islands is just... painful. Too much water. So I'd recommend the archipelago sub-setting if you're going to use low seas.

 

[Porphyrius]

Eventhough the small capacity of galleys does limit the operating potential of berserks, provided they attack under the cover of spy revolts berserk should wreath havoc in backend towns. They usually are way underdefended especially on surprise war DoWs. Agressive AI will make things a tad harder though.
And i feel choosing grens over rifles is the way to go for upgrading berserks. I ve run many a decent naval invasion with CR promoted grens even without the amphibious promotions.

Overall however, i'm not sure about archipelago. My experiences indicate the AI colonizes and develops island well enough but wages war much worse even in BTS.
Maybe you should add a couple of extra naval orinted civs to retain more challenge. You know AI plays poorly so lets give it yet some more bonuses.
Plus more AIs than normal means some will at least play well enough to pose a challenge.
Then again the AIs will likely start liberating colonies with zeal on the proposed map type.

As for the starting techs, it's pretty much agreed that Ragnar starts, like the Greeks do, with two of the weakest techs. I'll probably look to exploit Hunting by building a Scout or two to try to explore as much terrain as possible, and to try to beat the AI to some tribal villages. As for Fishing, well, the map should provide a coastal start, hopefully near seafood. And Fishing means we have the pre-requisite for Sailing and the Viking UB.

Why would one name hunt/fishing weak start techs? Its the only techs that net something immidiently making starting with them rather than researching them as first an issue.

Fishing lets wboats as the first build. And consider wboats vs workers cost its a nice choice whenseafood is around like most any on an archipelago map.

Scouts are a bit weak on an archipelago map, but otherwise...
Plus opening AH and hooking 2 of the 5 resources available in the very begining is not bad.

Overall i'd name them the good ones along with mining (mostly cause of BW).

Victory conditions: Well, I'm obviously aiming for either domination or conquest this time. With the combination of an archipelago map and the new colony costs in BtS, I can foresee having several far-flung vassals by the end of the game. Should be fun.

Typical island size on archipelago is too small to raise concerns for liberating colonies. The AIs will get a bit of extra bonus to their economies which they look like they need though.

 

[nfora]

Eventhough the small capacity of galleys does limit the operating potential of berserks, provided they attack under the cover of spy revolts berserk should wreath havoc in backend towns. They usually are way underdefended especially on surprise war DoWs. Agressive AI will make things a tad harder though.

I think that the problem with galleys here isn't their small size (you can solve that by throwing hammers at the problem), but rather their inability to wait in the ocean. Attacking backend towns, particularly in a surprise war, means hiding your troops nearby. If there are no islands and there is no friendly territory nearby, it's very difficult to sneak in from behind. At the very least, it isn't something to count on.

 

[ratrangerm]

Points that have been brought up that I agree with:

* Don't worry about building a Scout to start... go with a Work Boat instead, as with the Archipalego map, you should easily have several seafood resources to start. In fact, with most of your initial cities, a Work Boat is likely to be your first build.
* Definitely pursue Great Lighthouse and Colossus. Statue of Zeus will be good as well since you plan to warmonger and you don't want SoZ to fall into the AI's hands.
* I like your game plan with the Berzerkers. You could probably showcase the Amphibious trait by using them to attack any units that happen to be lying outside of cities should the opportunity present itself. And there might be times in which you attack a city when crossing a river, so Amphibious can be showcased then as well.

 

[Gooblah]

Now that I have BTS, i can offer a few tips:
-Make a Work Boat first build. Don't use it for any seafood. Explore. Early contact with other Civs and knowledge of surrounding islands and city sites is key in an Archipelago map.
-First tech should be Sailing, then Worker techs, then Writing. Bronze Working is a priority, but less of one since warring will be hard.
-Settler spamming is key. The odds of isolation are low, and minimal land means early division of it between cultures. Make a goal of 12 (settled or conquered) cities by 125 BC.
-Berserkers replace Maces right? If Machinery is a priority, make Compass one too. Optics will be that much easier to obtain.

 

[kniteowl]

A couple of Tips playing a normal archipelago Map, although I Don't how helpful it will be with low sea level setting.

Obviously never build an explorer (eg- scout) before your first Galley. You may want to build your UB before your 1st Galley so it gets the Nav1 Promo.

Hammers are rare, Food and Commerce are abundant, Never Chop unless you plan to mine a hill. Don't even chop wonders, Hammers very rare especially non-capital cities, you'll have Trouble build almost anything in a reasonable time frame. Therefore Whipping and Drafting are high in the list because there's lots of surplus food on this map.

You probably won't be cottaging much on this map but that's fine since you don't need to build a single improvement on this map as you're getting most of your commerce from the Sea plus any wonder you build eg- GLight and Colossus, therefore you're leveraging your Fin trait without ever doing anything.

I can't think of anything else... well here's example of a archipelago game played by Sulla, it's one of though Epic Tournament games.

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/civ4_epic2_1.html

hope it helps.

Cheers.

 

[iamnleth]

...A sushi paradise.

 

[Airefuego]

Another ALC game – brilliant!! Can’t wait!

Three thoughts:

1. The AI is really not too good at waging archipelagic war, as Porphyrius says. Aggressive AI doesn’t fix this. In fact you could find this game disappointingly easy (especially if you get the Colossus). I suggest you compensate by playing a hard hard level, or by deliberately choosing a few other opponents who are favored by an archipelago map (someone suggested Willem and Joao otherwise it will be a formulaic ol’ guts’n’ plunder bloodbath…wait why am I complaining…?)

2. Have you considered using a “medium and small” map? It gives a good archipelagic layout with a lot of islands but with a few bigger land masses too, and it is a bit less predictable than regular Archipelago.

3. Scouts are still useful if you use this exploring technique: you unload him after the galley stops, next turn he moves a tile and then loads back on, then the galley moves on... So you get to see across each island every two turns, and if you put him on a hill he sees way more than the slow ol’ galley ever does alone. (Or a workboat!)

 

[Kietharr]

The best way to leverage zerkers is building tons of galleys and filling a couple with berzerkers (enough to take out all of the units in a city in 1 turn) and have the rest be tons and tons of suicide catas. Send in as many suicide cats as you need directly from the ocean to get combat odds to 80% (usually takes me 4 or 5) and send in the berzerkers. I only suggest this for forming a beach head though because suiciding several cats per city is far from cost effective. With Archpellago you should be able to make use of this tactic at least once before the Industrial age. 4 or 5 catas is a fair price for your pick of any beachhead you want attacking the same turn you declare war in many cases. The minute you land units they will start whipping the city you're attacking to make more defenders, and that is somthing you don't want. In the end, sacrificing several cheap catas at the start of the war will save you at least one turn of war and probably several berzerkers.

 

[CivCorpse]

However, Berserkers (like Macemen, the unit on which they're based) appear at the precise moment in the game when city defenses are at their toughest. Walls and a castle give cities big defense bonuses in the medieval era (made worse if my enemy has built Chichen Itza). But the real kicker is that there's absolutely no way to remove those high city defenses from a water unit in that era. That ability doesn't come along until Chemistry and Frigates.

Oh goody, I get to give advice that is actually accurate and no one else has given yet. A rare occurance to say the very least. Everyone that has read my builderesque posts urging Wonders upon Wonders has figured out I am a builder by nature. That being said my first wars tend to be in the Medieval period. And when it comes to war I usually don't have enough units, especially since I tend to play AggAi with the teams hordes of the Ai. So i have to be clever rather than strong. My technique of winning wars with wimpy armies is complicated but usually very effective.

First off, frigates shmigates, we doan nee no steenking frigates. We need SPIES and eps. Being a builder I love the Great Wall for 2 reasons. A. no barb issues so i can build shiny things rather than troops for barbs. And the early Great Sneak. Settle the guy. Over the course of a game you get way more eps than an infiltration. Plus a little added science for that city. If you had settled the Great Spy in the Gilgamesh game you would have had him for 320 turns. That is 3800 PLUS 960 raw before building modifiers. And how many did you lose when you vanquished Washington?

Without a Great spy, you can slowly collect the in two ways. Adjusting the slider either all the way for a quick boost against your opponent or 10% while you build up your army. Secondly you can assign a spy specialist in each city. You get more bang for your buck from the specialist since you get a little science as well. Just don't do it in a GP farm or you pollute the pool. Though I really like settled great spies so I like when they appear.
the goal is not to collect a big gob of points to steal techs, but to have enough for a city revolt. Preferably enough for 2-3 tries in case the first one fails. I try and put three spies in a city a couple turns before the attack.

Now that we know how to get the defenses down to zero, we need to deal with the stacks of troops the Ai has been building since the dawn of time. I build a nice fat stack of troop eaters. How many of each depends on what your enemy has his army composed of. The basic units are Drill x-bows, formation pikes (which you can get from a barracks and either theology or vassalage when playing an agg leader.), hilldefense longbows and a handfull of suicide cats and flanking2 HAs. Send this SoD (stack of Defense) into his empire on the opposite side of where you want to attack. This draws his troops away from where you are attacking. Now fortfify yourself for the coming waves. A hill is dandy, near a river helps too. or if he has forest or jungle left that is nice. You are probably attacking his nicer cities so your SoD is in the region of his undeveloped ones with jungle or forests still intact. If the AI doesn't take the bait, then proceed to pilliage him into oblivion until he responds. The AI will throw tons of troops against this stack. The stack usually dies, but it takes down a lot more enemy troops. And macemen cost more than x-bows, knights cost a lot more than pikes. The bulk of this stack should be pikes and x-bows since the AggAi favors offensive troops like knights and maces. Just run around pillaging while making your way towards the true attack point. Stopping to heal on hills from time to time once the attacks slow down. Anything that makes it to the city you attack alive will be a heavily promoted beast.

Meanwhile, over in attackpoint B, you use a spy to lower defenses, throw a few cats at the city then assault with beserkers. While they heal, send the galleys back for fresh troops and cats. And send your spies onto a new city when the galleys return with fresh troops and extra defenders, load them up and move down to the next coastal city. I usually research optics while I am building my zerkers so I can have a few caravels helping to protect my galleys. They are stronger than triremes and are useful for inserting spies into a city if you don't have open borders with your victim. It is always nice to get the 50% discount for a stationary spy rather than offloading one and waiting 5 turns while they whip defenders. If you don't have caravels, then offload him at the edge away from your attack point when you DoW then run to where you want to attack.

 

[Gliese 581]

That was an interesting post CivCorpse, but I have trouble envisioning the vikings using such 'cowardly tactics' to defeat the enemy, they're berserkers for a reason! I say brute force and skill at arms, let the enemy know that the raiders are coming and let them tremble!

 

[reknaw]

If you get the GLH, I would consider going for the ToA as well. I realise Polythiesm will be very low priority, but it might be gained from an early tech trade, or popped from a hut given your previous luck with that .

 

[CivSetä]

GL should be high priority. It means every new city can support itself after couple of turns. And you are not going to war before maces, right?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

I don't think you can get polytheism from hut even after the religion has been founded, and trading for it in time can also be quite hard (because it enables a wonder).

 

[Gliese 581]

Getting the TOA can be difficult in my experience, the AI seems to build it quite eagerly. (The same is true for TGL) but then, it might just be that these wonders are unlocked by early techs.
Finding a source of marble early would be a godsend for this game. It would also help with the Great Library later on as that is the one wonder it's always worth it to give a shot imo.

 

[Bobbalouie]

I like the idea of archipelago with aggressive AI. Never tried the 2 together, so it will be interesting to watch. I agree that cowardly spying while not true to the viking way, is still a viable tactic, and since this isn't a RPG game, feel free to do it that way.

The sounds of Berserkers upgraded to CR3, then upgraded to riflemen, or grenadiers, sounds very fun. I also think you should consider showing the power of privateers in this game. That's one thing I've never really been able to do very well.

I'm waiting to see a starting map before I have opinions on tech paths and wonders , etc.

 

[Peluin]

Am I the only one that puts scouts on galleys only to find the goody huts guarded by stationary barbarian warriors?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

I'd recommend also putting a unit that can actually get rid of those warrior on board .

 

[Sisiutil]

upgraded zerks are fun!

have you played BtS Agg AI before, or will that be brand new for you? i'm just curious. i tried it only once. it wasn't what i expected at all, but i had a very very odd map and my usual oddball playstyle so i shouldn't have expected what i expected.

This will be my second Aggressive AI game. I tried it once a little while back in one of my first BtS games.

With low seas and archipelago, what land mass setting are you going to use? That can make a huge difference in how the game plays out. I personally prefer snaky continents on medium seas normally for war games but the land masses will be too large with low seas. Tiny islands is just... painful. Too much water. So I'd recommend the archipelago sub-setting if you're going to use low seas.

Either archipelago as you recommend, or medium and small (a different base map type, I know; I'm mulling it over). I may generate a few different maps of each type off-line and compare them in worldbuilder to see which type I prefer before deciding.

And you are not going to war before maces, right?

Depends on the map, as always!