ALC Game 20 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Ragnar

[xen01]

Here's my point: In a water based map the possibility of being rushed early on is quite remote. Hence the smart thing to do would be divert most resources to the tech race and leave little to the defense. Spritual/Aggressive/Protective/Charismatic without the Financial trait are in a huge disadvantage in these game. Aggressive AI on option? that leaves the AI in a more troublesome situation because they are investing early on defense instead of the tech race. I play a lot of multiplayer games using water based maps and experience tells me those who are aggressive and are unit spamming in the early part of the game would be dead in the later part. The later part of the game is the heavy land acquisition part (invasion part) of the game.

 

[Kev]

I have worries as well about the AI filling their cities early with units - ready to attack or defend where neither might be necessary until later. All the while falling behind in techs. The bright spot could be the they will certainly build a good navy - just have to pay attention to see if they load the ENTIRE navy into one city as they are wont to do.

If the parameters remain, pay special attention to getting one or two production cities up early - they'll be more difficult to come by overall. The Statues will be a key national wonder to get done early as well. In some cases, we can surely look to workshops and make great use of them with the requisite techs/civics. SP might be a good civic to promote.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Having mulled over the arguments for and against Archipelago, I still think it could turn out far too easy with Ragnar. He's one of the most entertaining leaders to play imo, but it would be a shame to remove the challenge just to showcase his particular talents.

Financial is HUGE on these maps (even more so than elsewhere), and with long-term water-based bonuses from the UU and UB, you'll have a massive advantage over your competitors. Throw in the AI's ineptitude on watery maps (esp. in war), and the game could end up as a procession.

Handpicking a few civs would at least give you some half-decent opponents, but I don't think that option is appropriate for an ALC - apart from lacking the surprise factor, it would go too far from the 'standard' civ4 game imo.

And while AggAI sounds like it should make it more difficult to win a warlike victory, I agree with xen01 that it could be way too easy to out-tech your targets before going on the offensive.

Medium&Small might provide the answer, but I've found its maps to be very variable: some are awesome, but a lot are pretty crappy. Big&Small could also give a really good map, but, as you said, there's a chance of getting a pangea with only mediocre islands.

Still, a tough game on a map with a good mix of continents and islands would make for a highly entertaining and informative ALC imo.

Perhaps, as you did for the Persia game, you could get someone to vet a few B&S/M&S starts for you, and select one with an interesting, Viking-friendly, but challenging map (ideally with at least one or two of the other watery leaders)?

Alternatively, if you really want to play an Archipelago, I'd suggest taking it up to Immortal. With two fairly easy wins on Emperor under your belt it shouldn't be impossible, given Raggy's advantages. If you were unlucky with the start, you might get thrashed. But that would still be more fun than a walkover.

 

[Deadliest Catch]

Long time lurker, first time poster etc. - you know the drill

I have been following these ALC threads with great interest. Honestly I'm not skilled enough to give specific advice on this level, but I want to offer my two on this big Ragnar Quest. Archipelago would do him well. But I do recommend "low sea level" and "snaky continents". This setting will provide a good balance between water and interesting land masses. In my opinion, any other Archipelago configurations are less suited.

 

[Scarredroman]

On the off chance that AGGAI leads Sisiutil to handpick Ragnar's opponents, might I suggest that Civs from the Viking Age -

Arabs
Byz
England
France
HRE
Russia -

would be appropriate choices.

 

[Daedal]

Medium&Small might provide the answer, but I've found its maps to be very variable: some are awesome, but a lot are pretty crappy. Big&Small could also give a really good map, but, as you said, there's a chance of getting a pangea with only mediocre islands.

Still, a tough game on a map with a good mix of continents and islands would make for a highly entertaining and informative ALC imo.

Perhaps, as you did for the Persia game, you could get someone to vet a few B&S/M&S starts for you, and select one with an interesting, Viking-friendly, but challenging map (ideally with at least one or two of the other watery leaders)?

I like this idea. When playing an offline game it's alright to rely on luck of the draw, but a crappy start could either lead to an unchallenging game or something entirely ridiculous that makes it very difficult to leverage Ragnar's unique stuff. Either way no fun for the eager masses. So just have someone else draw up the right map for a public showcase.

Wonderspam is better saved for some upcoming IND leader ALC than Ragnars round.

True... I keep forgetting that you can't just wonderspam with ANY leader at emperor difficulty. Still, there probably won't be anyone around to kill for the first thousand years or so and just because Sisi starts out with a quick run for some wonders doesn't mean the whole game has to go that way. Just enough to hand him a few early great people and secure a nice capitol. Stonehenge is probably out of the question (though the AI seems to rarely go for it), but how about just grabbing Oracle + Colossus + Great Lighthouse? When you consider the opportunity cost of getting those wonders, you're really not losing anything by investing hammers that way. Is there any other way to grab so much commerce so early? It's not like the units you build at this point are going to be upgraded into berserkers and island hopping, even with Ragnar, is a PITA. Especially this early when your economy is still weak. So you won't be dumping hammers into settlers either. Anyway, just one route to consider.

 

[Capellan]

Like others, I doubt the Aggressive AI setting actually helps the AI on an archipelago map. Both expansion and warfare on such a map requires a fair amount of teching before it becomes really viable. Low sea-levels will help by making galleys more viable, it is true, but maybe not enough.

I also second (or third, or twenty-seventh) the proposal to specifically select some of your opponents. I'd suggest picking at least two civs which start with Fishing, at least one of which should be a specifically maritime power (such as the Dutch or Portuguese). The other four can be wildcards, if you're committed to having the fun of 'discovery'.

Better yet, have someone else generate the initial start for you. That way they can pre-select say 4 Fishing civs, with two wildcards, but you won't know who any of your opponents are until you meet them.

 

[Gliese 581]

I'm uncertain about picking opponents. I would prefer if the map-type is not to much of a handicap for the AI, but I haven't tested the AIs BTS naval invasions very much, I don't know if it's true that they have improved noticeably.
In my current game I play continents but apparently two of the three are connected via small islands etc. Tokugawa has give me a dow twice before the age of astronomy so far without me seeing even one unit beyond the work boat scout, doesn't seem like a smart move there..

If AIs are picked I would suggest the two strongest for this scenario, Hannibal and William.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Winston Hughes has it right. Have someone pre-view the map to determine that it is suitably fair and will serve as a good platform for this ALC.

 

[nfora]

I just played an Archipelago map (Archipelago continents) with Ragnar until about 1500AD, and some things I noticed about it:

The BTS AI I played against wasn't keeping up (Augustus, Hammurabi, Wang, Sitting Bull, Roosevelt, Hannibal) in techs. The map script played games with us; Hammurabi, Augustus and I started near each other, and Hannibal and Roosevelt started close together, but the other two were isolated. Roosevelt was my nearest competitor, but that is only because of land as I had quite a tech lead on him. He had managed to cut Hannibal off. The BTS AI still can't seem to manage this kind of map at all well, since I was even playing a level up from my usual.

The AI actually managed to expand fairly well, and they built more ships than I had expected, but still not enough to make a difference.

Even if it obsoletes quickly, so long as you make sure to take advantage of it, colossus is huge. It is actually probably better than GL if you only have 1 or 2 AIs near you.

I didn't get to take advantage of berserkers very much, unfortunately. I took Augustus out with axes and cats, and then started working on Hammurabi with berserkers and trebs not long before I stopped playing. They did well, but without a method of taking city defenses out without landing, I just didn't have much use for their unique abilities.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[TRJS]

Just had Ragnar attack me latish in a game. He was on another continent and the next thing I know there are a few highly promoted Frigates protecting 3 Galleons. He attacks my city with a combination of Cannon and Grens then to finish off my defenders a couple of Berserkers come in.

Just thought I would mention it as it seems a good tactic. Hold onto a few Berserkers for late game attacks.

Was also very suprised at the high level Frigate. Usually I can fend off such a force with my own Frigates/Galleon but they had no chance. A sign the AI is warring more on the sea. Also this was without aggressive AI.

 

[sveint]

Archipelago without either "snaky continents" or "low sea level" (preferably both) just doesn't play too well.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I would go with Medium and Small, as Archipelago is just too big of a disadvantage as the AI can't make good use of the whip, which is the only real way to get hammers on most archipelago maps. Further more, I would disagree with picking opponents, as it ruins some of the interest.

 

[kniteowl]

well If I had to pre select 6 Civs for a Archipelago Map I's pick these Civs *read Spoilers... I don't want to spoil Sisutil lol*

Spoiler :

before UU & UB I'd select Civs with Traits that make Archipelago Map easier to play, generally traits with cheap coastal buildings.

The following Traits would be

Financial: It's pretty obvious with lots of coastal tiles your cities will be working you'd want to benefit from extra commerce

Expansive: Cheap Harbors for obvious reasons and cheap Granary will definitely help on a Map with HEAPS of seafood.

Organized: because you'd want to work those coastal tiles ASAP for immediate benefit and with the colony maintenance, those cheap Courthouses are a MUST, not ot mention that Civics cost is linked to Population size which will further cut cost.

I wouldn't consider Agg a good trait on this map type, only because the Drydock doesn't arrive till quite late in the game.

The 3 obvious Civs taht will be in the game would be

Darius: Fin/Org, even those the UU is weak on this map ype since you can't rush, the traits themselves can be easily leveraged and he'll probably excess technologically on this map type, the UB later in the game will help with unhealthiness.

The Maya: Fin/Exp, another early UU, but will probably be good defensive if anyone tries to attack early with Mounted units and the UB with an extra 3 Happiness is give him a 3rd trait (Cha) to work more tiles.

Medmed: Org/Exp, There's no explaining the UB it's similar to the Mayan one, the UU will be vital as it's draftable and will just low hammers and high food, it will give him a tactical advantage.

So that leaves 3 spots left the obvious next 2 choices are the Dutch and the Portuguese

Which leaves 1 spot left, Since the first 5 choices don't seem too aggressive enough and I don't want a Love fest of teching and trading I think we need at least 1 aggressive personality, preferably a Civ with either the Agg or Cha trait combined with the 3 top Archipelago map trait tiers.

so either Agg/Exp, Agg/Org, Cha/Exp, Cha/Org, Cha/Fin

Shaka: Agg/Exp
Hammurabi: Agg/Org
Washington:Exp/Cha
Napoleon: Cha/Org
Hannibal: Cha/Fin

Washington doens't appear to be aggressive enough so that eliminates him.

Hannibal is questionable he may end up teching too much and not focus on the military but he has a very nice UB that will help him on this map because it gives him an extra trade route and the UU has the potential to counter the Berserker even if Sisiutil gets a tech led assuming Hannibal gets access to horses. I'd only pick him for the last spot only if he's a close target to Sisiutil and only if he has access to horses.

Shaka and Napoleon seem to be the most aggressive and I'd probably pick one of those two for the last spot, I'm leaning towards Napoleon for his Draftable UU.
Although Shaka's UB will help keep him in the tech race because it also cuts colony Maintenance almost like a Mini Organized trait... hmmm Decision.. Decisions.

btw I dunno much about Hammurabi because I generally Chariot rush him before he has a chance lol, well I'll let you guys vote for the last spot between, Hannibal, Shaka and Napoleon, remember to Spoiler tag so you can't spoiler it for Sisiutil.

Also I'm to lazy to generate a Map if someone else would like to do it... please go ahead thanks.

 

[Sisiutil]

Alternatively, if you really want to play an Archipelago, I'd suggest taking it up to Immortal. With two fairly easy wins on Emperor under your belt it shouldn't be impossible, given Raggy's advantages.

Were you following the Gigamesh game? I wouldn't categorize that as an easy win!

I would go with Medium and Small, as Archipelago is just too big of a disadvantage as the AI can't make good use of the whip, which is the only real way to get hammers on most archipelago maps. Further more, I would disagree with picking opponents, as it ruins some of the interest.

I have to say that after generating and looking at several maps, I didn't much like the look of archipelago and I liked medium-and-small even less. I therefore might be attempting a snaky continents map, though I may leave the sea level on normal.

As for choosing continents, I kind of like the idea of including a couple of sea-worthy opponents like Joao and Willem, just to be different.

 

[PericlesOfAthen]

I really think its a great idea to also choose your enemy civs. Might I recommend the following civs: Hannibal - Carthage, Pacal - Mayan, George Washington -America, Willem van Oranje - Dutch, Elizabeth - British, Gandhi - India.
I think this ALC game would be most educational for avid readers like me.

Thanks.

Usually on Emperor you get more difficult AI opponents already. I don't think it is necessary to specifically select some. I bet that Willem or Hannibal or both will show up on an Emperor, archipelago map.

Also I wanted to point out that with the Aggressive AI option diplomacy becomes more difficult. AI's are more difficult to please and usually the randomly generated AI's include more aggressive AI's as well. Combine this with the fact that S is aiming for a conquest or domination and balancing diplomacy will be key. Also I think a trade-based economy clearly complements well with an archipelago map but the fact that diplomacy will be hard and S will be warmongering it may make it difficult to do this as well. With that said, I'd say it looks to be a really interesting game! I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Gliese 581]

Usually on Emperor you get more difficult AI opponents already. I don't think it is necessary to specifically select some. I bet that Willem or Hannibal or both will show up on an Emperor, archipelago map.

Also I wanted to point out that with the Aggressive AI option diplomacy becomes more difficult. AI's are more difficult to please and usually the randomly generated AI's include more aggressive AI's as well. Combine this with the fact that S is aiming for a conquest or domination and balancing diplomacy will be key. Also I think a trade-based economy clearly complements well with an archipelago map but the fact that diplomacy will be hard and S will be warmongering it may make it difficult to do this as well. With that said, I'd say it looks to be a really interesting game! I'm looking forward to it.

Do you know this for a fact or is it just your experience? I haven't noticed that my difficulty setting or aggai/default has had any impact on which random leaders I face.

 

[TM Moot]

How about 'No tech trading' or 'No tech brokering'. Personally I normally select the latter, but I am aware that some forumers think that this hinders the AI more then the player. Certainly in the last Giga ALC it would of had a huge effect if Sis couldn't of traded techs.

 

[Bobbalouie]

I'd be a vote in favour of all the enemies being random. If one of the ones you guys want, (Wilem, Joao II, and Hannibal seem to be the most common) get in through random , then they are there. If not, no big, there will be other civs there. The ALC is to showcase the leader for the round, not the enemies. I want to see what he can do as Ragnar on a water based map with aggressive AI on. So many civs can present a unique challenge to you, so let the RNG decide the enemies this round.

 

[dragomaster]

Wy not play a Medium an small map with snaky continetns