ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[iamnleth]

The point of stonehenge is that it will be built in the first 30-40 turns by the AI... He can't build it unless he built it before the first settler and as such the cost is way too high...

I agree completely. Trying to nab 'Henge after the first settler is a BIG gamble and the gold you would receive as a result of losing the race would not compensate for the loss of hammers.

Playing with two extra civs BUT no 'low sea level'! Well. That's definitely stacking in favour of the human and an early rush. AND you're Boudica!

Without low sea level the two extra civs will mean all civs will be crammed in much closer! This will effectively negate many of the AI's bonuses at Immortal level when it comes to early REX'ing, and we all know how bad the AI is at declaring war when there's no land left in which to expand peacefully. If you're adding extra civs, which I fully endorse by the way, you simply have to lower the sea level.

I agree. Stacking the odds in favor of the civ or leader that the human is playing, while fun, makes the game that much easier. Low sea level solves this problem by providing an appropriate amount of additional land.

 

[Peachrocks]

Wow no tech brokering AND playing Boudica... I tried some Boudica on Emperor... it was a bit of a learning curve to be truthful but now I can do okay but at the end of the day she's not the type of leader I like to play, I want to like her, but I just can't.

It's not cus she's all war, its cus she doesn't get much/any economic help and doesn't really ever get a technological edge to go total war with but gets a truck load of promotions instead to give her more 'advanced' units, I much prefer a leader like Napoleon (Org/Chm) or Stalin (Agg/Ind) when playing a warring game. I really hope you do well with this, because I'll be interested to see how your game played out differently to my own.

However tech brokering for me was critical because of Boudica's difficulty of getting a solid economy running. Although some things are stacked in your favour Sis, no tech brokering is seriously going to hurt you.

Anyway I had a capital much very like this one in my last game as Boudica, no silver though, so that might make your early research much easier. I put Moai, Heroic epic and a bunch of GG's there

 

[kazapp]

no tech brokering is seriously going to hurt you.

It's always going to hurt you. That's the whole point of it.

I mean, Sis probably chose this precisely he was tired of being able to explode each beaker just by fleecing the AIs to catapult his nation into a tech lead over and over again without breaking a sweat.

 

[CivCorpse]

Looking at the start and hearing some of the advice I am reconsidering my Stonehenge reccommendation. It didn't take into account the extra Civs, RExing is going to be a top priority. Especially since grabbing copper is going to be key. Copper is more important than Stone henge. Especially if Sis gets boxed in. Settling South is not an option. And with the polar location there is going to be a lot of tundra which limits early city locations.
I am now in favor of Worker first, warrior then WB. Tech path should be mining->BW->fishing. It is going to take 23 turns to build a worker. It takes 12 turns for mining then 23 turns for BW. When the worker finishes he moves to the silver and mines it. This will take 7 turns. The moment the silver is mined move production to that hill. Start working the silver hill. This should shave atleast one turn off of BW. Move the worker to a forested hillsquare. Poor guy will be idle for 1 or 2 turns only. As soon as BW finishes start mining the plainshill. It will take 7-8 turns to research fishing depending on the overflow from BW. It takes 11 turns to chop/mine a hill. Working the mined silver means 12-16 hammers in the workboat when the worker finishes. Poof, instant work boat. Time elapsed approx. 43 turns. You have a workboat, worker, warrior and minded silver and a mined hill. You have researched fishing->mining->bw and 4 turns of another tech at pop 1 with zerofood in the box
Workboat build would take ten turns to research fishing and then 15 turns to build the boat working a forested plains hill. Then 18 more turns to build a worker. It is now turn 43. You have a workboat, part of a warrior and a worker with 20/33 food in the box. No improvements built. And you are still short some 3-4 turns on BW. Though by the time the worker finishes the mine on the silver it should be complete.
I think the deciding factor is the extra commerce from the silver. You get it on turn 30 vs turn 50. That is 13*5 + 7*2(you switched to the seafood) =79 beakers. You get the added 2 commerce from the seafood for 25 turns. That is 50 beakers. The advantage to WB 1st is getting to pop 6 four turns faster at a cost of 29 beakers and one chop worth of time. At turn 50, when the WB first plan gets the silver online, worker first plan is also at pop2. So both are the same except for the commerce from having the mine for an extra 25 turns and the 7 extra turns to chop a 2nd workboat. That 2nd workboat will easily put the city ahead in food terms vs wb first

 

[Scarredroman]

Now factor in whipping, Civ Corpse, on alternative strategies.

 

[Bird Brain]

I'm not nearly as good a player as others here (just Monarch/some Emperor), but I do usually play with two extra civs and no tech brokering. In my experience you can get boxed in very quickly if you go for an early wonder like Stonehenge instead of claiming some land. I tend to pass on Stonehenge these days, even with a charismatic leader, because by the time I've chopped it out the AI civs are REXing all over my best land. Maybe this map won't be as densely populated as some of mine have been, but still I'd rather have to put up monuments in a few good cities than have a nice, shiny Stonehenge but no cities for it to benefit . . .

 

[whakamole]

While I'd still like to see a Stonehenge open, CivCorpse (and others) have merit in suggesting a silver mining start. No tech brokering means you'll need every advantage to keep up with the AI research pace, and the silver is one way to get an early start.

Thing is, with a Mining/BW/Fishing open, and considering Boudicia's starting techs of Mysticism/Hunting, and with no techs available from goody huts... your starting worker will be locked into two tasks only. Mining and chops.

This open, then, means either you'll have to follow a limited-choice tech path to find more productive tasks for your rock hound/lumberjack (I'd guess at least the wheel)... or you'll have to live with a worker who does little more than pre-chops for hundreds of years if you need to focus on other techs (say for example if you have no copper and need to go to IW, or if you find you have an opportunity to get a religion). At least there are a lot of forests to pre-chop in your capital.

I still say that Stonehenge will not only benefit your Charismatic trait, but will also give your civ the additional SH "Creative-lite" trait, allowing you to REX your cities more optimally, knowing you can quickly nab resources in the second tier of the BFC or placing them a little further apart to seal a border to a rival.

 

[Dr Yes]

I agree on Mining-BW-Fishing.
Of the available techs, there is no evident use for Agriculture, AH, Masonry or Meditation. Mining and Fishing have immediate use.

Mining first to open up the silver, and because it is a prerequisite for BW.
Fishing to open up the crustaceans. Once BW is available, chop the workboats and start cracking the whip.

That all said, a lot depends on what the first border pop and the warrior movement reveals.

 

[pigswill]

I spent a hunk of time doing a paper anaylsis on CivCorpse's plan and concluded that going fishing>mining>BW while building warrior(incomplete)>WB>worker>finish warrior would get BW 4 turns later but city would be pop3 not pop1.

 

[batavier]

I am now in favor of Worker first, warrior then WB. Tech path should be mining->BW->fishing. It is going to take 23 turns to build a worker. It takes 12 turns for mining then 23 turns for BW. When the worker finishes he moves to the silver and mines it. This will take 7 turns. The moment the silver is mined move production to that hill. Start working the silver hill. This should shave atleast one turn off of BW. Move the worker to a forested hillsquare. Poor guy will be idle for 1 or 2 turns only. As soon as BW finishes start mining the plainshill. It will take 7-8 turns to research fishing depending on the overflow from BW. It takes 11 turns to chop/mine a hill. Working the mined silver means 12-16 hammers in the workboat when the worker finishes. Poof, instant work boat. Time elapsed approx. 43 turns. You have a workboat, worker, warrior and minded silver and a mined hill. You have researched fishing->mining->bw and 4 turns of another tech at pop 1 with zerofood in the box

your approach would also generate more than enough hammers for a second warrior before you can start on the boat. you could still put them in Stonehenge of course.

1-23 worker, any tile, 2h left
24-28 warrior, 3h tile, mine hill (takes 8 turns,including moving to it)
29-31 SH, 3h tile, mine hill
32-33 SH, 3h5c tile, worker move 2 plains forest, hill 1 turn idle
34-40 SH, 3h5c tile, worker mines forested hill
41-44 WB, 3h5c tile, worker finishes mining forested hill,

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 1 mined plains hill, 48 hammers
into stonehenge, or slightly more than 2 extra warriors/scouts, 65 extra commerce collected

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

 

[GinandTonic]

Henge and a copper city are all you need. Silver and seafood for decent commerce at the start. Get a copper city online and start spamming woad production. Then take your new cities while making your enemy weaker and use the early GP to get you out of the tech hole.

Care must be taken with no brokering that the hole does not get too big of course.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Having played the opening rounds of a game with similar settings, I'd like to point out something everyone else seems to have missed

I am also finding that goody huts can be overpowering because they appear in the oh-so-crucial early turns of the game. In addition, since Boudica starts with Hunting and, therefore, a Scout, that gives her an advantage in finding tribal villages (though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?).

No goody huts means no getting gold from them, which means each city you add immediately slows down your research. Which in turn means pottery had better be high on your research list, or at the very least getting that silver mine up and running.

I started with marble in my BFC, and foolishly prioritized masonry, thinking I'd be able to get ToA or Oracle, instead of pottery. Now, I have to wait another 18 turns before I can start building cottages in some of my cities, so that I can research something plus place a few more cities.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm not nearly as good a player as others here (just Monarch/some Emperor), but I do usually play with two extra civs and no tech brokering. In my experience you can get boxed in very quickly . . .

I sort of figured that with Boudica, getting boxed in was half the fun

 

[CivCorpse]

your approach would also generate more than enough hammers for a second warrior before you can start on the boat. you could still put them in Stonehenge of course.

1-23 worker, any tile, 2h left
24-28 warrior, 3h tile, mine hill (takes 8 turns,including moving to it)
29-31 SH, 3h tile, mine hill
32-33 SH, 3h5c tile, worker move 2 plains forest, hill 1 turn idle
34-40 SH, 3h5c tile, worker mines forested hill
41-44 WB, 3h5c tile, worker finishes mining forested hill,

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 1 mined plains hill, 48 hammers
into stonehenge, or slightly more than 2 extra warriors/scouts, 65 extra commerce collected

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

 

[Validator]

I sort of figured that with Boudica, getting boxed in was half the fun

As long as you have access to a metal, and aren't being boxed in by an AI with an early defensive bonus (Hammurabi, Sitting Bull).

 

[vicawoo]

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

You want to store 2 food because on epic, it takes 22 to grow, and you have a 4 food crab source.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

Forget Stonehenge and have your second settler ready to claim copper. Without metal things will be tough for the Celtic Queen.

 

[batavier]

You want to store 2 food because on epic, it takes 22 to grow, and you have a 4 food crab source.

It's 22 food on normal speed and 33 on epic to grow to size 2

 

[vicawoo]

It's 22 food on normal speed and 33 on epic to grow to size 2

Man the mind's going early. Then 1 food is best.

 

[whakamole]

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

Nice micro analysis. Just because I don't have my calculator with me (and I admittedly slept through most of advanced calculus), can you guys let us know if there would be any benefit in either plan to include 1 turn of anarchy to revolt to slavery... in order to turn stockpiled seafood into hammers via whip? Or would it be worth the population reduction to expedite the builds?