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ALC Game 33: Korea / Wang Kon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Benginal, Jun 4, 2011.

  1. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    785
    yeah, Korea's UB is no big deal but it's a minor freebie on a building you'll be making anyways, so why complain?
    It's a lot better than a Dun =]
     
  2. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

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    Benginal: Would you mind posting the save?

    These are just initial impressions:

    Regarding Cottage vs. Specialist Economy: The map looks rather food poor, you are Financial, and this is an ALC, so I would think that argues for running a CE. So I would agree with Keilah in using the GS for an Academy.

    Since it is an ALC, you might research Math for better chop yields and then Construction to unlock your UU. Maybe an early war with Hwachas against Persia? (Assuming you convert to Judaism).

    This is most likely because he has a monopoly. AI usually refuse to trade a tech if they are the only civ that has researched it.
     
  3. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Got myself into this position before deciding I didn't want to finish off

    Spoiler :
    the long slog across the rest of the continent when I get cannons in five turns. Good economy, a couple saved up GP for a golden age, or an instawonder, plus another about to pop....basically whats left is one massive round of cannon whipping and then a long and repetitive war to domination against germany and then mongolia.
     
  4. Optical

    Optical The Fall of the Eleventh

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    Help me. I don't know where I am.
    @ben-jammin: you may want to upload that at imgur instead so Benginal can't see the thumbnail. Just a small thing, but just in case...

    Spoiler small comment on gameplay, not really secret, but Benginal may not want to see comments on shadow games :
    Nice play though! I can see how that'd get a bit tedious towards the end.
     
  5. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Whoops. Removed the thumbnail...always forget to do that. You can upload the images here to civfanatics and remove the thumbnail but leave the full size image by pressing 'go advanced' under the post edit frame and then 'manage attachments.'

    Spoiler :
    Of note was the holy shrine captured in rome that ended up giving a good 30+ gold per turn, and the annoyance of the insta-peacevassal of Persia when I declared peace because he started upgrading all his defenders to rifles and I decided to extort and then wait for cannons. From that save obviously Germany will not take long to destroy but Mongolia is actually at par military tech-wise and would take a bit longer (after finishing off persia first after the war dec, of course). In the end, the protective trait is actually pretty neat for the rifling era and beyond. Wherever I settled great generals will produce drill 3/CG1 rifles, which means the strategy against Mongolia would probably be to settle a hill city, declare war and then wait for his stack of doom and defend it with rifles and, by that point, possibly machineguns. I dont get the hate for machineguns. The fact that they can intercept airships and are totally immune to collateral makes them a food hammer investment IMO, doubly so for a game in which flight and tanks will be irrelevant if they even get unlocked. Quadruply so when youre protective and can at that point pump out drill iv machineguns from a westpoint/settled GG city.
     
  6. Optical

    Optical The Fall of the Eleventh

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    Help me. I don't know where I am.
    Thanks for the tip - I didn't know that! :)
     
  7. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Gone fishing for the summer
    Not sure why you'd skip literature when you have marble.
     
  8. Damoklesz

    Damoklesz Chieftain

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    This was one of my easiest game on immortal. Conquest victory in turn 263 - 1765 AD. I feel I had a solid beginning, but towards the end I made many mistakes and should have won domination way sooner.

    Edit: LOL, same turn as AbsoluteZero :lol:

    Spoiler :

    Settled 2S, then first 2 cities went towards Cyrus, so that made him play the 4 city challenge with 2 in the jungle. Because of how good a techer he is, he managed to keep up with the world. That was good, because I could comfortably trade with him without the danger of him running away in tech.

    JC founded hindu, and it spread to the whole continent, even to kublai. This was great for so many reasons... The ├╝bershirne gave him a huge research boost early, but JC being JC, never was a threat for the lib race. He also had 7 cities, but I had 8 good ones, with almost no tile sharing anywhere, so for an immortal game, that's pretty great for me.

    Bismarck went for wonders instead of settlers, like always. He ended up with 7 cities, but unlike JC he would have had plenty of time to settle more. I mean letting me to have most of the floodplains directly west of Berlin... He also had a small conflict with Kublai, but lucky for him (an me), JC put an end to it with the AP. JC really deserves a nobel peace price for this game.

    I didn't really play it as an ALC though. I "took advantage" of the early techs by not building a worker right away. I ignored the Hwacha, because it's absurd to go for a medieval war on immoral when you have 8 good cities to settle. I went early Oxford, but I do that almost every game (+10% research was great though). I didn't took full advantage of the financial trait, because I started cottageing kinda late, but I ended up with some cottages even if I mainly focused on production. I played more for the map than for the trait. Drill I was welcomed from protective, but I didn't stand arould waiting in castled cities for the enemy to come, and the hindu love (and Toku as Zaras playmate) made any early declarations on me pretty much impossible.

    Short summary: Settled my cities fast, went Great Lib + music artist + Sistine (marble), built the AP (to force it to be hindu for the hammers), went for Oxford asap, then won Lib, went rifles, then cannons. I declared on JC first, but he bribed Bismarck in. With 100% cannon production + drafting I won both fronts, but JC forced peace with the AP (my first misplay, should have defied it). When it ended, declared on both of them again and both of them capped before the next vote. Kublai and Cyrus were next, Cyrus was fast, Kublai not so much. This was my biggest mistake, I should have killed both of them and take the domination victory, but for some reason I was afraid that Zara would take them as a peace vassal if I don't cap them right away. I should have took my chances, because even in the worst case scenario it would have been faster to just redeclare on everyone. Anyway I had like 55% land so I had to build a fleet, by that time I already had my coastal cities ready, and I had combustion, so it didn't take that much time. I ended up with an indecision between landing infantry + support and amphibious marines so I had a little bit of everything. I fed my vassals all the techs, so that the relative world power would increase, and it seems to have worked, they both capped fast.
     
  9. RickyJr337

    RickyJr337 Chieftain

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    Ohio
    AbsoluteZero

    I just watched your vids. Could you post any of the saves from that game? Trying to work my way up and the vid was helpful, just want to get an in depth look at what you were doing.

    Thanks
     
  10. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    The saves from that game are long since gone sorry.
     
  11. Timo33

    Timo33 Chieftain

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    Benginal, when are you planning to start the next round?
     
  12. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Location:
    Raleigh
    Round 4: 675 BC to 150 BC (turns 89-109)

    Spoiler :
    I suppose it's been a little while, but I've always planned to finish this game. And I've played a few different games over the past month and feel comfortable playing and writing up the rest of this one.

    First thing to do: switch to Literature.



    I've got marble and a perfect place to put the Great Library. In other news, Cyrus has a settling party heading for the gap in my territory.



    I really wasn't in the mood to have him settle my backyard, so I adjusted the tiles in my capital.



    This delayed the great scientist by one turn, but allowed me to 2-pop whip the settler on the next turn.

    With the settler built, I revolted to Judaism to join the Jewish party going on on the continent.



    Cyrus is now the only gentile on the landmass which should make my staying friends with everybody else slightly easier as Cyrus can be the lightening rod. That said, the people on this continent don't really care about religion super much.

    Sure enough, I get to where I'm heading one turn before Cyrus gets there.



    It's possible he was heading to the blue circle. But no matter. I'm happy either way. I closed borders.



    The idea here is now Cyrus can't send the party through my lands to the unclaimed land to my north. Possibly he wouldn't have? I'm not really sure of the game mechanics here.

    The Great Scientist heads over to Pyongyang.



    Here he will build an academy at the future Great Library + National Epic site.

    With Literature in, I decide to head for Civil Service.



    This is sped up by trades. Yay trading!



    The next turns carry on without drama. I settle another city up to the north. I build a few cottages and some basic city infrastructure.

    After furious chopping around Pyongyang, the Great Library is complete.



    And a few turns after that, I found Confucianism.



    I've got no plans to do anything with this. But it's nice to the extent that nobody else on my continent will be founding it and messing up our love-fest. I stop play here.

    State of the World:

    The Empire:



    The peaceful expansion phase is almost over. War is coming.

    Key Cities:



    Seoul is slow-building my final settler of the game. I don't really want to finish the Parthenon. I want the marble-powered fail gold from it. Going forward I plan to grow this city on its farms. Build the Heroic Epic and run Buro and use the city to churn out military units.



    After finishing the National Epic, Pyongyang is going to run two scientists and put its citizens on the cottages along the riverside that are nearing completion. For the next 1000 years Pyongyang is going to pull double duty as the great person farm and major science center.

    Tech Screen:



    The following trades are available:







    Frenemies:



    Civics:



    Going forward I plan to do the trades for Calendar and Monarchy and then revolt into OR and HR. I'm going to stay in slavery until the end of the medieval war. I'm planning to tech up to Civil Service. And then with maces, the Korean Hwacha, and an assortment of other units wage a war. I'm thinking of targeting either Bismark because he's backwards and has built several wonders or Cyrus, the likely target of JC's fist. I'll be taking a side-step to research music for the Great Artist (and subsequent golden age) and the trade bait it provides.

    Your comments, questions, thoughts, and answers are all welcomed!
     
  13. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Location:
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    Round 5: 150 BC to 75 AD (turns 109-118)

    Spoiler :
    I started the round with the trades I'd planned on.





    Following this, I allowed one turn of anarchy. HR is not necessary yet, but it's worth getting since I'm spending a turn revolting anyway. OR is very useful.

    Julius built the Apostolic Palace. In the short run this is super because it means I get AP hammers for Jewish temples and monasteries. I started building some right away. In the longer run it opens up the possibility of winning a religious victory. After all, I'm planning on getting larger and now maybe I'm planning on taking out JC. ;)

    The empire at 1AD:



    Music almost in and I'll get the Great Artist. A settler is on the way up to take the final city. It's not particularly wonderful, but that's why it's getting settled ninth. And it's got forests to chop and gets me horses.

    I turned off the slider, continued to build infra and prepare for the Hwacha and Maces war. But then an interesting trade became available.



    Sometimes it's good to follow plans. Other times it's better to be flexible. I've got enough infrastructure to have an effective and immediate war build up.











    Three turns to construction. Then I can turn off the slider, quick finish off some barracks for producing Hwachas, swords, and axes. Perhaps two other cities will build stables for elephants. Some other cities might whip elephants without stables. I think Elepult fits in nicely with the Korean unique unit, better perhaps than a medieval war when I'd really be wanting trebs anyway.

    I still haven't decided on a target. But somebody's going to get it. It'll be their Christmas present. :xmascheers:
     
  14. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    I've played the map a bit and have to disagree to some extent with people saying its food poor. Imo the Capital will easily become a Bureaucracy beast (150+) and 10-11 cities can all have +5F surpluss and whip units for days on end. Tons of overlap.....nice, STRONG map.
     
  15. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Location:
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    Round 6: 75 AD to 760 AD (turns 118-148)

    Spoiler :
    Kind of as predicted, everybody teamed up on Cyrus. This made my war declaration target choice fairly easy. I wasn't yet in the mood to back stab.



    But I wasn't quite ready to declare war just yet, either. This was unfortunate as KK asked me to.



    I thought about this decision for a few minutes. It would likely have turned out okay if I had agreed. But the benefits -- extra diplo, I decided weren't worth declaring without a reasonable force ready. Although Cyrus was at war with everyone, the wars were fairly phony. Neither KK nor Bismark had made any substantial advances with their forces and I didn't want to end up using the Protective trait out of desperation.



    Pyongyang was doing a decent job as Great Person farm.



    Civil Service finished meant that I had a choice to make. I could either pursue Liberalism, for the free tech, or machinery and engineering for maces and trebs. I chose the latter. I had war on my mind.



    War on my mind meant that I wanted beakers quickly, beakers that would be directed towards the war machine. So I chose to settle the Great Scientists (the above and the next one) instead of bulbing Philosophy, Paper, and Education. This surely slows down my Liberalism time, but I think it speeds up my time to potentially taking out two AIs.

    A few turns later I had a stack that I could declare with.



    cseanny is quite right. Almost all of the cities have excellent food surplus at small sizes allowing for super efficient two-pop whips of Hwachas and Elephants. The force in this screenshot is basically all of what Cyrus through in my way.

    The empire during the war:



    As it happens, I completely forgot to take any screenshots during the actual war -- call it extreme focus. Or call it not really any focus because I was watching Peaky Blinders. Whatever.



    Cyrus has one city left up on the northwestern peninsula that I can't be bothered to take out just yet. He was willing to capitulate, but I've no interest in a tiny, unpopular vassal. I'll take the peace treaty for now and finish him off later.

    Here's the captured Persian empire:



    And the prized city:



    I used that Great Artist I had hanging around from Music to trigger a Golden Age.



    I revolted in to Buro which, combined with the Heroic Epic, makes my capital quite adept at producing military units.

    My army stands as follows:



    You can see I took some losses in the Persian war, but have plenty remaining and much more on the way for JC, who I've decided is next up.



    He's tech leader. And while I'm not super worried about him winning the game, he's got some great cities I'd like to have for myself.



    Plans for the future include: Buying peace (begging gold) from Bismark and KK and then declaring war on JC. Whipping maces and trebs and select infrastructure during the next 7 turns of Golden Age. Then revolting to Pacifism and Caste System to get us through Education (and Seowons) and Liberalism. I'm hoping JC goes down without too much of a fight. He'll have knights, but nothing that a ton of trebuchets can't handle.
     
  16. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Round 7: 760 AD to 1050 AD (turns 148-165)

    Spoiler :
    I spent the first few turns of this round moving around the armies. The next great scientist popped with the finishing of philosophy. I took the opportunity to bulb paper and then start on Education.



    The Buro capital as a science center is often sought out when not necessary. Buro + Heroic Epic makes for a stellar combination.



    At the moment, it's a bit too stellar. But as the military units become more expensive later in the game it'll be perfect. The next AP vote.



    And what happens after an AP vote?





    Some bribes.



    Some money gathering.

    And a war declaration.





    I pushed in with the armies. JC smacked his stack in to mine. It was devastating for both armies, but markedly worse for his. I was able to finish off all of his troops which left him with nominal armies in his cities.



    And the pattern begins. Suicide a few trebs and then take the city.







    Protective longbows are really quite nice.



    JC had some marauding troops. I quickly built a few longbows and then didn't have to worry about anything. It was lovely.

    I split up the army at this point. I'll let screenshots tell the rest.





    Brief interruption.



    Education came in and I started on Seowons. I turned off the slider as I'm in no rush to get to Liberalism.



    Back to the war.





    Horse Archers were queued later on in the war buildup as they can get to the front faster. And after trebs have had a go at a city, anything will win.





    JC passaled to VC. Sigh.



    The people of Neapolis really can't even anymore.



    Rome is finished. Shout out to the AI for figuring out a way to not get any of these fish. Eyeroll.



    Let's review the situation.

    My cities are many, and have yet to be reviewed this turn.



    Bismark has this stack:



    And lightly defended cities:





    But I have very few troops of my own left, unfortunately.



    I'm well ahead in tech, so no worries.



    So now the options are

    (1) Re-build the army. Trebs and maces still. It would likely happen very quickly and I think I could take out Germany.

    (2) Let Bismarck smack his army against quick-built walls and protective longbows, take peace, and tech up on Korean Universities.

    I'm excited to see what I pick!
     
  17. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Location:
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    Round 8: 1050 AD to 1240 AD (turns 165-184)

    Spoiler :
    It's nice to have friends.



    At this point I had the bright idea of going for a religious victory. I've still yet to win a religious victory and thought it would be fun! Turns out Zara loves theocracy and Toku never opens borders. So a little wrench in that plan. But check out all the holy cities in my empire!



    War was decided upon. Siege is necessary.



    In keeping with my religious victory shenanigans I teched up to optics so I could build caravels to transport my missionaries.



    Huge waste of beakers, looking back. Sigh. That's a better looking army now.



    The armies rolled in two stacks, now each with a super medic.





    A shot of the empire and it's build orders.



    Finally met Toku and the dude is as backwards as expected.



    You see us rolling.



    Berlin is captured.



    Peace with Bismarck so I can get the last city.



    And the German is finished.



    Kublai's stack looks like this:



    Liberalism in. Very late, but it's been a war heavy game.



    I've been spamming cottages all over the place.



    So I elect to head off in that direction. The technologies should be finishing during the golden age inspired by the Taj.



    Which will nicely fit in with my growing wonder collection.



    The state of the world:







    Not a large remaining army, but it could get bigger pretty quickly. I'm not quite sure how to finish the game. I could do it any way, very likely. Any requests?
     
  18. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    Conquest ofc :D
     
  19. Pollina

    Pollina Emperor

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    The AI (even Toku) will always open borders, when you share a war with them. You can gift missionaries to AIs that run Theo. A religious victory should be pretty easy at this point. You might have to gift your AP city to Cyrus, though.

    Space ofc, to get some use out of your UB. :D
     
  20. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Do you think you can conquer Khan? Then do that, tech to combustion and conquer the other continent easily.
     

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