Alfonso the Wise as Alternative Spanish Ruler?

[Öjevind Lång]

I know there have been many calls for a second Spanish leader. I've been out of sympathy with them because I think they are largely motivated by two considerations: 1) guys who for some reason fear that they'll be regarded as gay if they play as Isabella and 2) people who want Francisco Franco included so they can use him in WWII mods and the like.

However, there is a good case to be made for the inclusion of Alfonso X, also known as Alfonso the Wise, king of Castile (ruled 1252-84). He was a tremendously learned man, the greatest astronomer of his day, and also responsible for a unified code of laws, founding an observatory in Salamanca and working out the so-called "Alphonsine Tables" (look them up, folks.) Furthermore he was, as those who bother to look up the Alphionsine tables will know, religiously tolerant, like many Spanish rulers during that period. In addition to that, he promoted he development of the Castilian language, that is to say, the direct ancestor of modern Spanish.

Scientific and Organized, any time of the day, and he would have been able to estimate the time of day very nicely. In fact, he once complained (since the geocentric system was still accepted in his day) that if God had consulted him the solar system would not have been so messed up.

This is a serious suggestion which I think merits consideration.

 

[Naokaukodem]

1) guys who for some reason fear that they'll be regarded as gay if they play as Isabella

You forgot the real gay people who wants to play with Isabella, precisely.

 

[r_rolo1]

Alfonso the Wise would definitely be worthy of being a Civ leader, surely more than some that are already there....

The issue is that he wasn't King of Spain In fact there was no country named Spain in those times ( the old days where Spain was a geographical name for everything between the Pyrenees and the Jebel-al-Tarik ( today's Gibraltar ).... ). Well, there is always Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire, but I think one example of that kind of ambiguity is atleast more than enough

 

[Antilogic]

At least the kingdom of Castille was the pre-eminent kingdom in the Iberian peninsula, and was one of the two major kingdoms that became modern Spain. This is about the same, in my eyes, as giving Frederick II of Prussia command of all Germany.

I'm always looking for interesting historical figures outside the 20th century (cue the personal attacks from other threads in 3, 2, 1...); I'm going to go and read up on this guy.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'm starting to question my sexuality now that I realise my favourite leaders are Hatshepsut, Elizabeth and Cathy.

Anyone fancy a bum?

 

[Antilogic]

I'm starting to question my sexuality now that I realise my favourite leaders are Hatshepsut, Elizabeth and Cathy.

Anyone fancy a bum?

I like Lizzy too. Although that's because she has great bonuses (traits and UB work well together, UU great for the endgame mop-up) and she's a fellow red-head. LIZZY REPRESENT!

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Alfonso the Wise would definitely be worthy of being a Civ leader, surely more than some that are already there....

The issue is that he wasn't King of Spain In fact there was no country named Spain in those times ( the old days where Spain was a geographical name for everything between the Pyrenees and the Jebel-al-Tarik ( today's Gibraltar ).... ). Well, there is always Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire, but I think one example of that kind of ambiguity is atleast more than enough

Well, apart from Frederick of Prussia, whom Antilogic has already mentioned, there are also Ragnar, who wasn't king of anything (in fact, it's doubtful if he has even existed); Boudicea, who was merely the queen of one Celtic tribe; Zara Yaqob, who wasn't king of Ethiopia but of a pre-existing kingdom called Aksum (roughly corresponding to the modern Ethiopian province of Tigré); Sitting Bull, who didn't lead the Native Americans but only the Sioux; others. So I don't think Alfonso is disqualified.

 

[Antilogic]

Furthermore he was, as those who bother to look up the Alphionsine tables will know, religiously tolerant, like many Spanish rulers during that period.

From a gameplay perspective, to keep the discussion on track, this also provides a nice counterpoint to the nutty zealot Isabella.

An analysis of the hypothetical AI using Civ4 Spain as a base: we have a leader who emphasizes development and science, maybe he'll play similar to Frederick or another economic leader, while having the punch of Spain's midgame siege through the UB and Conquistadors.

Does this description fit anyone else in the game (w/o unrestricted leaders)?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

From a gameplay perspective, to keep the discussion on track, this also provides a nice counterpoint to the nutty zealot Isabella.

That was my thought too. Of course, I want Isabella retained, but an alternative Spanish ruler who is not areligious zealout would be nice. And I think someone like Alfonso could be formidable, both as an opponent and to play as.

 

[r_rolo1]

My opinion is that there are Spanish leaders that could fit the bill nicely without having to resort to pre-Spain leaders ( I could say the same of HRE, where Frederick Barbarossa could had been a decent leader for HRE ) , like Philip II of Spain, I of Portugal ( pls, do not start the discussion about him being a bad leader in RL or not... Churchill was PM on the time of Mau Mau and the Malayan independence war and that didn't stopped having it as Civ leader )... in fact in my opinion, if you want a pre-Spain castilian leader for Spain, maybe Alfonso VII ( the self proclaimed "Emperor of all the Spains" ) would fit better

P.S) @ Öjevind Lång

IMHO none of the leaders you quoted should had been in Civ IV, atleast in the civs the devs used. If I want to play leaders unrelated with the civ they are suposed to lead, I choose "unrestricted leaders". If I want to play fantasy leaders I choose a mod with them..... ( the celtic leaders chosen leaders are laughable: one rebel queen of a peripheric island ( atleast for the Celtic world, that spawned from Portugal to Turkey in those days.... she's probably below in representativity of the Celts than Viriato or Vercingetorix ) and a largely legendary sieger of Rome, that the Romans didn't even bothered to record the real name ... and Knut or Mathilda weren't probably good enough as a largely legendary raider, that had the power of being in 4 places at the same time, if we believe in the chronicles )

 

[Öjevind Lång]

My opinion is that there are Spanish leaders that could fit the bill nicely without having to resort to pre-Spain leaders ( I could say the same of HRE, where Frederick Barbarossa could had been a decent leader for HRE ) , like Philip II of Spain, I of Portugal ( pls, do not start the discussion about him being a bad leader in RL or not... Churchill was PM on the time of Mau Mau and the Malayan independence war and that didn't stopped having it as Civ leader )... in fact in my opinion, if you want a pre-Spain castilian leader for Spain, maybe Alfonso VII ( the self proclaimed "Emperor of all the Spains" ) would fit better

The problem with Philip II is that he was a religious nut, like almost every Spanish leader from Ferdinand and Isabella onwards. That's one of the reasons why I suggested Alfonso the Wise.

I completely agree that Ragnar, at least, shouldn't be included as a leader in Civ. I don't understand why they didn't stick with Canute. But I am not fanatical about only "true" leaders being the leaders of civs. It's hard to find good Celtic leaders, for example, though I think Vercingetorix (the Gaulish king who led the fight against Caesar's conquest of Gaul) would have been a better choice than Brennus. Boudica? Just eye candy; the inclusion of her is ridiculous.

 

[r_rolo1]

To say the truth I don't find Philip II more fanatic than the average ruler of the time, and surely would be in the same scale as Elizabeth. The fact is that he fought a lot of people that oposed his plans of anexation to a medievally-toned Republica Christiana, and a lot of them, by accident , weren't of the same religion ( not all, like the Portuguese ( unfortunately feeeble ) resistance to his takeover of the Portuguese kingdom ). Never understood why people tend to paint him as a catholic cruzader in such sharp colors, when some other leaders religious tainted motives are overlooked

But, on topic, I surely think that Alfonso X would be a nice leader. Just not for Spain

 

[Antilogic]

I completely agree that Ragnar, at least, shouldn't be included as a leader in Civ. I don't understand why they didn't stick with Canute. But I am not fanatical about only "true" leaders being the leaders of civs. It's hard to find good Celtic leaders, for example, though I think Vercingetorix (the Gaulish king who led the fight against Caesar's conquest of Gaul) would have been a better choice than Brennus. Boudica? Just eye candy; the inclusion of her is ridiculous.

Fortunately, it took me all of 2 minutes to rename Ragnar Canute, and keep everything else the same. Thank you, XML!

The Celts were relatively disorganized as a people. However, Brennus was successful in sacking Rome, and he's one of the first barbarians to pull it off...around ~390 BC. That's right, he's a trend setter, eight centuries before it was cool to beat up on Rome.

Unless...of course...it's the other Brennus. I've never checked the Civilopedia entry, so I don't know which one he is.

Now, if we had Vercingetorix instead of Boudica, that might be a better combination.

 

[Turquoiside]

You could make a case for Zara in qualifacations. Aksumite Ethiopia appears to be the one represented in the game. Technically Tokugawa didn't rule, yet it would be silly to say he doesn't deserve inclusion.

No person lead all of the Celts because there was no Celtic nation. Boudica was added because of what she did (which wasn't enough) probably only because she was female......


Back on topic, Alfonso is hard to decide since he was during (Moor?) Spain. Not saying he should lead them, but I've always wanted a Moor 'civlization'. Sadly, the only other Spanish leader I can think of is Ferdinand (redundant because he is Izzy's husband), unless Charles V can be considered Spanish, though it seems he is called 'Holy Roman' more.