All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

Well done :D. It's interesting to see that a game that everyone thought would be brutal, was won with relative ease at the end. Just had to get over that Washington hump, the rest was coasting downhill on momentum.

Possibly, I might consider this the next time I feel like I'm in an unwinnable position. Probably not though :P

Looking forward to Ragnar.
 
Quick question: Do two unhealthiness points always accompany the Three Gorges Dam? I was always under the impression that no downside came from it-- as if there was a Hydro Plant in each city.

yes, it's a change i think. power in and of itself causes -2 :yuck:. coal power is another 2 or so on top of that!

i have 3 gorges dam in my current game, and i'm getting the -2 :yuck: for power in new cities on that continent that don't have factories yet. so they're getting no benefit, but they do get the downside. that's not so hot *giggle*. it's late enough in the game that i have health resources enough that new cities are fine with a lower health limit by two, but still ... that seems unfair! punish me for building a wonder? but because it's not the factory providing that particular -2 :yuck:, it's the power, the wonder has a downside. :gripe:
 
Well, the two bits where I really thought 'what's he doing' were

- Not taking advantage of Representation. It's an awesome civic... sure, you can potentially get more happiness out of HR, but it takes a lot of hammers, and you don't get the research bonus.

- Not preparing for war with Washington soon enough. You need to plan ahead - it's no good thinking, "now's the time for war," and then taking twenty turns to build up troops. Once you'd killed Ragnar, every single action you took should have been to prepare for a war with Washington - whether by making troops, giving extra cities or shoring up your infrastructure. Instead, you meandered.
Agreed on both. I think I touched on not taking advantage of early rep in my post-mortem post, but I forgot to mention that I clearly waited far too long before taking on Washington. The biggest indicator of that is how much easier the game became once I eliminated him.

I often do have a tendency to settle back after a successful war for too long. Even when playing as Rome, where you can fight on the backs of Praets for most of the game, I "meander" as you call it. Partly it's that you do need a respite between wars to restore your economy; but once you do, all these shiny new buildings and wonders become available and it's easy to get distracted. I also get my own personal version of war weariness sometimes and then go into builder mode.

The other problem is "one more tech" syndrome--you know, where if I can just get Engineering for pikes and trebs, or Machinery for Xbows, or whatever, then I'll have the advantage I need to go to war.

Well, as Shaka clearly proved in this game, you don't need a tech advantage to win a war. Hannibal clearly had a tech advantage on the Zulu, but Carthage got its butt summarily kicked. Something to remember, especially since there's a Shaka ALC coming up soon.
that was a wild game. meeting those guys and seeing shaka had clobbered sitting bull down to one city :lol:. there was one ALC where monty eliminated somebody before we ever met them iirc, asoka or gandhi. that's just so wild.
That was the Hatshepsut game, still one of my favourites, even though I've surpassed its score several times since then.
Quick question: Do two unhealthiness points always accompany the Three Gorges Dam? I was always under the impression that no downside came from it-- as if there was a Hydro Plant in each city.
The TGD used to work that way, but I believe the +2 :yuck: from power was introduced in BtS, I would guess in the interests of game balance. It's strange, though, because it means that the TGD is the only wonder in the game that has an inherent drawback.

There isn't really a way around it; not every city can build a hydro plant, after all, and the other two options (nuclear and coal) have similar drawbacks.
Well done :D. It's interesting to see that a game that everyone thought would be brutal, was won with relative ease at the end. Just had to get over that Washington hump, the rest was coasting downhill on momentum.

Well, the other key to this victory was recognizing that Shaka was going to be the power to be reckoned with and sucking up to him big-time ASAP. There are so many games where I've given Shaka the virtual equivalent of the finger if he wasn't next door to me; if I'd done that this time, I think a DoW by the Zulu would have been inevitable, and this would have been a very different game.

A bit of strange luck played into this, mainly that no religions got founded on my continent. That meant I was free to convert to Shaka's state religion as soon as it spread to me. Ironic, since I was bemoaning the lack of a religion early on to help with happiness, but its absence helped save my butt.

I'll start the Ragnar pre-game thread in a few days.
 
Nice game, but to be the monday morning quarterback, i think you should have taken CoL with the Oracle, gone Rep and ran the SE. After taking out a rival and having to fill in the land, the SE would have been the sharper take off. But congrats on the win. Entertaining as always and thanks for taking the time and effort to give us these. A selfless act from a generous man :handshake: :handshake:
 
Great game. I really though you will not be able to pull it off.

Can you please share your thoughts regarding the UB, UU and the traits combination?
 
Well done finish up.:goodjob:
Sushi + Mining really worked out nicely as expected and things went conveniently smoothly.:D

Personally i wouldn't mind if this ALC was won via either type of diplomatic victory. I mean the major part of the space finish was founded on the forced peace with Shaka through good relations.

Agreed on both. I think I touched on not taking advantage of early rep in my post-mortem post, but I forgot to mention that I clearly waited far too long before taking on Washington. The biggest indicator of that is how much easier the game became once I eliminated him.

I think the main reason we were set back during medieval era was REXing. It should have been the primary priority after finishing Ragnar, thus expanding sooner and more intensively, what with the GW in hands and all. As you metoned before choosing HE or SE to cottages and thus expanding north along the coast to the furs back then would help too.
But still we may have found ouselves underprepared for war with Washy.

I often do have a tendency to settle back after a successful war for too long. Even when playing as Rome, where you can fight on the backs of Praets for most of the game, I "meander" as you call it. Partly it's that you do need a respite between wars to restore your economy; but once you do, all these shiny new buildings and wonders become available and it's easy to get distracted. I also get my own personal version of war weariness sometimes and then go into builder mode.

The other problem is "one more tech" syndrome--you know, where if I can just get Engineering for pikes and trebs, or Machinery for Xbows, or whatever, then I'll have the advantage I need to go to war.

Well, as Shaka clearly proved in this game, you don't need a tech advantage to win a war. Hannibal clearly had a tech advantage on the Zulu, but Carthage got its butt summarily kicked. Something to remember, especially since there's a Shaka ALC coming up soon.

The breaks between wars are essential for proper development, but timing them properly is one of the toughest things in the game.;)

I have to agree on the "one more tech" syndrome, still. I mean practically always the second war in any ALC includes trebs if not knights. Having tried the opposite (warring sooner mostly with cats and swords/axes) with excellent results, i think you should try it eventually. As well as value quantities a bit more.:D

However i maintain that the war vs Washy could last much less than its ~150 turns, where it to be fought more aggresivelly after the the first 35 turns part used to build up a proper military. We had a definite tech advantage for about half of it. But we wasted it on one civic change on top of the next and razing city after city to get slightly better locations.



The UU could have seen more use where it shined had copper been available sooner or the war with Washy had come faster, but there always much more luck than planning involved in what you make out of classical era UUs.

The UB could be handier with more intense REXing but Washy just wouldnt agree with that.:D The GW made using the UB to churn out the GSpy unneeded too.

Between castles (inclusive of the indispensably handy as it turned out quest) and the war vs Washy fought good part defensively i think the protective trait was at its best.
Creative could shine more properly with a HE/SE though, along with our economy at the time through more flexible use of the slider.
 
Great game. I really though you will not be able to pull it off.

Can you please share your thoughts regarding the UB, UU and the traits combination?
The Vulture didn't really get a good showing in this game, but I suspect that may be a frequent circumstance with Sumer. The map generator was tweaked in Warlords, IIRC, to make copper less common in order to slightly nerf the axe rush. As a result, there is a smaller chance of having copper for Vultures in each game. In a way it's unfortunate that the UU is based on the Axeman, since being able to use it is entirely dependent upon having copper. In an off-line game, I very well might have abandoned the start once BW showed there was no copper readily available, the way I usually abandon a Rome game if there's no iron around (though that, in contrast, is rare). If you have to research Iron Working, you'll be able to build Swordsmen, and the Vultures then serve a support role, just as regular Axemen do once Swordsmen show up.

As Porphyrius mentioned, building the Great Wall kept the UB from having a chance to shine. Even so, having the Ziggurat made available by Priesthood is, I found, a bit awkward. Gilgamesh has few reasons to pursue that tech path; he doesn't get extra benefits from religions.

I think that Sumer suffers from too many goals in the early game. Do you research Bronze Working for the UU? Mysticism - Meditation/Polytheism - Priesthood for the UB? Hunting - Archery for protective units? The early game goals felt scattered to me because there are simply too many of them. Just compare Sumer to Japan. Tokugawa's unique characteristics are nicely spaced out: protective archers in the early game, Samurai in the mid-game, shale plants in the late game. In contrast, I really think you'd be unable to properly exploit Gilgamesh's characteristics except by having incredible luck with tribal villages popping techs for you.

Creative is a big benefit in the early game, of course, as it means you don't have to build monuments or go after Stonehenge. But that should mean you can neglect Mysticism for awhile, yet you can't, because it's on the path to the UB. :crazyeye:

Overall then, I didn't find myself warming to Gilgamesh too much. Too many unique characteristics to try to exploit in the early game, and very little help from them by mid-game. Especially on the higher difficulty levels, it's tough to try to get everything in play and working at once. Perhaps I'm being too tough on Gilga after only one game, but I'm unlikely to try another one with him.
 
Go Sisiutil! :goodjob:

Gilgamesh isn't a top leader, and neither, I think, is Ragnar. It'll be interesting to see you use the Berserkers and Trading Posts in ALC 20.
 
I often do have a tendency to settle back after a successful war for too long. Even when playing as Rome, where you can fight on the backs of Praets for most of the game, I "meander" as you call it. Partly it's that you do need a respite between wars to restore your economy.

Here's how I try to think about it when I know another war is around the corner: restoring your economy is OK, but only insofar as it helps with the next war. You need to reach the point where you can afford your opponent's empire, and where you have enough production to build a military. Then you should build it.

As for 'one more tech,' if you have catapults and you're one tech from macemen, then... build catapults while you research. Maybe put one of your cities on wealth if it's going to take a while. But just because you don't want to fight until Civil Service doesn't mean you can't have most of your army in place (catapults, crossbowmen, war elephants) before then. Of course, with all that said I make the same mistake as well :blush:

Remember this above all else: it should be a rush. Not only are you “rushing” at an opponent with your army, you’re also rushing to get that army in the field.

Gilgamesh isn't a top leader, and neither, I think, is Ragnar. It'll be interesting to see you use the Berserkers and Trading Posts in ALC 20.

Sisutil, would you consider playing Ragnar on an archipelago? It feels like that's where he's 'meant' to be used... though his UU/UB would also be useful on a continent-based map, I suppose.
 
Yeah, please do the Ragnar game on Archipelago- It's really unfortunate that you didn't in the Hannibal game, and didn't go for a more Trading centric economy (GL, ToA, the Cothon.... :D)

Doing an Archipelago map and getting the Colossus would make Fin a massive trait.
 
I think your biggest stroke of luck was in Cyrus not taking Astronomy with his free tech from winning the liberalism race. You were able to make several good trades and keep in touch techwise.
 
The real luck, imo, was having Shaka on the other continent. Without him and his insane warmongering, both Hannibal and Cyrus likely would have been seriously contenders for a Space Race victory. Of course, they would also have been much easier candidates for a naval invasion, so I guess that balances out.

Bh
 
The dips in Shakas GNP is interesting and unusual for the AI, however a lot more common for the human player.

Those dips were not caused by anarchy as usually anarchy will actually put you in the green + (?) financially. It actually looks like deficit researching/espionage, like I said, interesting for an AI.
 
Here's how I try to think about it when I know another war is around the corner: restoring your economy is OK, but only insofar as it helps with the next war. You need to reach the point where you can afford your opponent's empire, and where you have enough production to build a military. Then you should build it.

I think that there is some merit in that train of thought, but mostly in keeping an eye out for where the next war you want will come from and where the most likely war will come from (unfortunately, these are often two different wars). You should prepare for war enough to make sure that you can win the war without taking so much of a beating that you lose the game by winning the war, but you also need to focus on your economy as a whole as well.

If you look at the game, Sisiutil did exceptionally well in the beginning when his economy as a whole was strong (and I'm including hammers as well as beakers and cash here). He struggled when his economy was shaky after the war to the south and once again when Washington turned his baleful eyes toward him. If Sisiutil had Astronomy, then a war against Washington wouldn't have been terrible with foreign trade routes from overseas keeping him afloat. As it was, losing the only trading partner that we could reach made happyness (and health, but mostly happyness) into a much bigger problem than it should have been and probably halved the science rate as well.

A strong economy is critical for success in this game because it gives you the technologies that let you achieve your goals for the game and it gives you the resources that let you put the technology to work. You saw Shaka's power rating at the end of the game. Even if Shaka had declared war on Sisiutil at any point in the last update, does anyone here really think that it would have changed the game's outcome? It might have meant a longer endgame and Sisiutil might have even lost a few cities, but you saw the way he was moving through techs. He would not have stood a chance against Shaka if he did not move ahead of Shaka in techs to launch the starship to Alpha Centauri or push ahead in military techs to outgun Shaka in spite of Shaka's numerical advantage.

Wars are necessary. Wars are helpful, but it's war to grow the empire and achieve strategic goals not war for its own sake. Just like using the economy to achieve strategic goals rather than just trying to acumulate a huge pile of cash. What good are a zillion cities that each lose money and produce very little science? After you conquor the cities, it's important to turn them into productive members of society that can contribute to your goals for the game.
 
@popejubal: oh, sure. I'm talking about when you've already decided to go to war in the near(ish) future, and the only question is when. In that case, it's all too easy to get distracted... and you mustn't.
 
Well done, as always, and time for a well deserved break. The only input I'd add at this point is that if you decide to tailor a map to Ragnar, might I suggest the Big and Small map with the Snaky Continents option? It's very similar to some Civ2 maps, and provides flexibility between land and sea action. Just pointing out another option BtS laid on the table . . .
 
I think this is an ALC classic. Perhaps not fun to play, but very intresting to read.

It has several good lessons for us average players. The most important being: It's not over 'til it's over.

For me, and many other players, a modern war against an equal or stronger opponent is a daunting prospect. I can't remember if Sisiutil has ever done that in a game. Perhaps it is time. Though i understand that by modern times one just wants to wrap it up.

KKL
 
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