All Nine Revealed?

[SnowKomodo]

Indonesia is a completely different ballpark.

There are 300+ distinct major languages (with 700+ living languages) that exist. Not different dialects. But completely and entirely different languages.

Because of this, nearly all Indonesians are bilingual. They speak their local languages first. And then learn Bahasa Indonesia (or 'Indonesian' to Westerners) as their second language. Bahasa Indonesia became the official language because they needed to choose a language to unite all the islands together (lingua franca)

To relate this to the game, Gajah Mada speaks Old Javanese. Modern Javanese is the second most spoken language in Indonesia and 14th most spoken worldwide. (Indonesian is 9th most spoken worldwide.)

Proud of the devs for recognizing this. Not only did they avoid choosing simply an Indonesian speaker, but they avoided modern Javanese. They found a classic Javanese speaker and that attention to detail is great

 

[alpha2117]

This


Take a look around at the famous buildings in England as well as many historic buildings in America. Other than Stonehenge, You'll find an enormous number of them are done in the Palladian style or influence. Many consider (myself included) Venetian architecture to be less impressive that that of it Florentine and Roman contemporaries, largely do to its horizontal rather than vertical designs. However the style and concepts of Palladio greatly appealed to the English and American founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson.

Agreed - as I said in a earlier post Venice in and of itself is a impressive architectural achievement. The thing is basically built on a swamp and the fact it hasn't crumbled is very impressive. My point remains though that I dont see them as a stand out.

There are about 40 Euro choices not in the game that would contain enough history and elements to make truly viable civs. All have plusses all have negatives. If we didn't already have a few trade heavy civs then I could see them as a stronger argument but with the Dutch, Portugal, Indonesia, Arabia, Morocco I dont see their trade element as being a neccesity. At that point they become a lot more borderline and other choices like the Papal States or Florence seem better suited. We haven't really been given a pure religious entity nor have we been given a true new culture powerhouse in this expansion. Also The Visigoths, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Hungary, Kievan Rus, Burgandy, Aragon, Scotland, Yugoslavia, Romania, Khazars, The Tatars (Golden Horde). Belgium, HRE and many others all have strong cases.

To me unless they have come up with some wow factor in design Venice is just one of many possible Euro choices and in a game where we only get 43 civs I simply hate the fact it's in the game in front of all the Colonial civs or those African civs or the Native civs or Asian civs that all would at least offer more cultural and locality diversity to the game.

 

[baptismbyfire]

Why could Venice not be a culture powerhouse? You're assuming that it is going to be based primarily on trade, but we don't know anything about the addition yet. Venice certainly could be a very culture heavy civilization.

 

[Warcat]

There are about 40 Euro choices not in the game that would contain enough history and elements to make truly viable civs. All have plusses all have negatives. If we didn't already have a few trade heavy civs then I could see them as a stronger argument but with the Dutch, Portugal, Indonesia, Arabia, Morocco I dont see their trade element as being a neccesity.

Which is exactly one reason why I would rather see Florence (or some variation of Tuscany) instead of Venice. Venice was a trading power, but it was Florence that profited most from the surrounding trade cities by making huge economic advances. Florence and surrounding areas excelled above other nations of it's time in so many ways that the city itself became a model of what Civilization could be.

 

[Luziadus]

Indonesia is a completely different ballpark.

There are 300+ distinct major languages (with 700+ living languages) that exist. Not different dialects. But completely and entirely different languages.

Because of this, nearly all Indonesians are bilingual. They speak their local languages first. And then learn Bahasa Indonesia (or 'Indonesian' to Westerners) as their second language. Bahasa Indonesia became the official language because they needed to choose a language to unite all the islands together.

To relate this to the game, Gajah Mada speaks Old Javanese. Modern Javanese is the second most spoken language in Indonesia and 14th most spoken worldwide. (Indonesian is 9th most spoken worldwide.)

Proud of the devs for recognizing this. Not only did they avoid choosing simply an Indonesian speaker, but they avoided modern Javanese. They found a classic Javanese speaker and that attention to detail is great

and there is some indonesian words based on the "lingua franca" - the language that was used most in those parts for trade and commerce - which was the portuguese language.

 

[SnowKomodo]

and there is some indonesian words based on the "lingua franca" - the language that was used most in those parts for trade and commerce - which was the portuguese language.

Correct. In addition to Portuguese, Indonesia also borrowed words from French, Arabic, Sanskrit, Dutch, Persian, and so on and so on. A lot of this has to do with being very diplomatic with these nations and empires through the years. A lot of it also has to do with colonialization. (Underlined Dutch because it's one of the major ones.)

It also went the other way around. Indonesia contributed words to various foreign languages.

E.g. Caddy, paddy, amok, cooties, cockatoo, dugong, gecko, jackfruit, durian, sambal, satay, orangutan, and so on.

My favorite though is 'boogey man.' It was a concept that already originated in Europe on its own but it died down. When the Dutch sailed to Indonesia they faced constant threats from the hardened Indonesian Bugis pirates. They brought back these stories to their children and the concept saw a revival in Western culture. Hmmm, I wonder if this was the butterfly effect that led to Monsters Inc...

 

[Luziadus]

Correct. In addition to Portuguese, Indonesia also borrowed words from French, Arabic, Sanskrit, Dutch, Persian, and so on and so on. A lot of this has to do with being very diplomatic with these nations and empires through the years. A lot of it also has to do with colonialization. (Underlined Dutch because it's one of the major ones.)

(It also went the other way around. Indonesia contributed words to various foreign languages.)

but the dutch never was a lingua franca.

 

[Tinker]

That's not what he's saying - as a Dutch colony for a decent amount of time, the languages traded words.

 

[Luziadus]

That's not what he's saying - as a Dutch colony for a decent amount of time, the languages traded words.

i know and im saying that the dutch never was a lingua franca in those areas, just made some influence in the colony, also have some words shared with indonesian.

 

[alpha2117]

Why could Venice not be a culture powerhouse? You're assuming that it is going to be based primarily on trade, but we don't know anything about the addition yet. Venice certainly could be a very culture heavy civilization.

They could be designed to be but it's not their claim to fame. There is a reason why Shakespeare set his play about Merchants in Venice and made the titular merchant a bastard. The Venetians made their money through some pretty dodgy methods (lets go to the Holy Land ... but on the way lets loot and pillage our neighbors). They were capitalists first and foremost. In terms of culture they were behind Florence, Rome, Milan and other more central Italian cities which fed off each other when the cultural boom came. Inevitably their unique location allowed them to become the great melders of Eastern and Western influences which meant later in their development they became much more culturally significant - earirler they were more profit focused. If they were going for a cultural choice that would have been Florence and religous would have been the Papal States. Venice is clearly the trade option out of Italy.

 

[Borysz_34]

Maybe we see Watican City? or Tibet? )

 

[Menzies]

Maybe we see Watican City? or Tibet? )

Both already ruled out.