Alternates to Judaism - MODCOMP

[fearuin]

OK, it seems confirmed that Rhye's working on schisms. I wasn't sure about this, and so I had the idea of Orthodoxy. So we have the alternative of Zoroastrism. But the problem is the Arabian UHV, and I will add something I haven't figure it out. Jerusalem is coastal, so Judaism spreads well. But Parsa isn't. This will mean that probably Zoroastrism will be constrained to the Persian region. So the eastern civs (Greece, Rome, and Egypt, and, in Warlords, Carthage) will have less culture. Less culture means less defense, and less defense results on more easily falling to raging barb attacks. Actually in Vanilla we have a balance problem with barbs that causes these three civs to fall 100% of the times before medieval ages. I know that it makes sense historically, but makes Arabian life just too easy. And this factor will make things get worst.

So we may think in another alternative. For another project I'm working in, I have played a little The Ancient Mediterranean mod. In this mod, it features a religion that may fit for us: Heliocratic Polytheism. Zoroastrism, Greek Polytheism, Egyptian one, or even Roman's one fall into this cathegory. So it doesn't matter were it's founded. We can make it to be founded with Polytheism, or auto-funded in Egypt. That will be on the way of Arabia, connected to the sea through the Nile (so it can spread quicker), and it's not impossible to other civs to have it.

What do you think?

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Ok, sorry, I clearly misunderstood your post

 

[kairob]

Juediasm is not balanced, it has a monopoly for the first half of the game then becomes obsolete, in the first half it would be better if it wasn't thier and in the second half it might as well not be.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Yeah, there is Jew-Europe that happens about 70% of the time.

 

[SadoMacho]

Jerusalem is coastal, so Judaism spreads well. But Parsa isn't. This will mean that probably Zoroastrism will be constrained to the Persian region. So the eastern civs (Greece, Rome, and Egypt, and, in Warlords, Carthage) will have less culture. Less culture means less defense, and less defense results on more easily falling to raging barb attacks. Actually in Vanilla we have a balance problem with barbs that causes these three civs to fall 100% of the times before medieval ages. I know that it makes sense historically, but makes Arabian life just too easy. And this factor will make things get worst.


What do you think?

Civic paganism could give 1 and 2 to obelsik and monument.
(this would also reveal a small bug in the code of Firaxis)

 

[kairob]

Well if no one else does it then when its finished I will probably make a Jew->Zoroastrian mod

 

[Elhoim]

Zoroastrianism for me too!

 

[El_Chimpo]

Wo I think we're all getting a little to excited here about religion. How the game works at the moment is pretty damn smooth. If you're concerned about the Judaism issue, Zoroastrianism could provide a way of stopping the spread of Judaism in the east. I haven't had much of a problem with Judaism spreading West though, but then again I'm new to Rhyes I've only played 4 games.

 

[Koheleth]

It's balanced as far as gameplay goes, but accuracy's right out the window. When did you last see a Jewish missionary? =P

The perception that Judaism doesn't missionize is a relatively modern one. For most of its history, Judaism actively missionized. By the year 50 c.e. or so, Jewish missionaries had converted most of Ethiopia, Yemen and parts of Persia to Judaism. Whole Berber tribes in North Africa converted to Judaism around the same time while, in the Greco-Roman world, there were hundreds of thousands of Judaizing pagans.

What stopped Jewish missionizing wasn't Judaism per se, but several accidents of history: the Jewish revolts against Rome (which made converting to Judaism and missionizing for Judaism illegal and impossible after 135 c.e) and the spread of Christianity and Islam (both of which banned Jewish missionizing and slaughtered Jewish converts). Indeed, in areas of the world that were neither Christian or Muslim, Jews kept missionizing -- hence why the Khazar kingdom converted around 900 c.e. Had history played out differently (i.e. the whole point of Civilization), Jews would probably have kept missionizing.

 

[kairob]

Juedaism as a religion is activly against missionary activity, islam frowns upon it but accepts it, christianity is the only one of the three that activly supports it. Also theare more people following Juche (the state religion of north korea set up by Kim Ill than followers of Juedaism, also more people following Spiritism (set up in france in the 1th century). Its assentially tied in to its ethnic group and as such shouldnt be represented by the system as it exists. This leaves to sollutions, change the system or remove Juedaism. I vote for the second, this is about a Modcomp to do that, if you dont want it removed dont download it, but dont complain on this thread that it should stay.

 

[fearuin]

Yes, I agree kairob's opinion. But did anybody noticed on the Heliocratic Polytheism idea? What do you think about it?

Civic paganism could give 1 and 2 to obelsik and monument.
(this would also reveal a small bug in the code of Firaxis)

This was a partial solution I proposed time ago. Combined with Zoroastrism can just fit, but I think the Helio solution can be easier to do.

 

[kairob]

I think that if we just assume that all civs without a later religion are pagan and then give +1 culture to all cities when you have the paganism civic. but give a large penalty to civs with a state religion to those without (the pagan ones).

As far as I can see this is the best way to represent paganism, if you want it represented, I have given this a great deal of thought and all the other ideas I could find or think off had large flaws in them.

 

[Whitefire]

Judaism as a religion is actively against missionary activity, Islam frowns upon it but accepts it, Christianity is the only one of the three that actively supports it. Also there are more people following Juche (the state religion of north Korea set up by Kim Ill Sung than followers of Judaism, also more people following Spiritism (set up in France in the 19th century). Its essentially tied in to its ethnic group and as such shouldn't be represented by the system as it exists.

I don't want to Godwinize the thread, BUT, please remember that Jews were blamed by Rome, then the Vatican, for a host of problems that they had no control over. They were ostracized and persecuted for thousands of years. Then one man decided to make millions of Jews went up in smoke. It's not surprising that even fringe religions have more adherents than Judaism, but that should not b justification of the exclusion of a religion that has had such a prominent place in world affairs.

 

[SkippyT]

In stead of adding Orthodox Christianity, I'd propose a regeneracy or a reformation - available for ALL religions.
But ..the only religion this has happened to is Christianity ..
1. If the civ that holds the Holy city (The Papal States, in history) have bad relations with another civ that has that religion. (Say..-7 or -10 relations)
2. If the religion is too large
3. If the city is far away from the holy city (not connected or something)

Well.. I don't know. - Maybe the Orthodox idea is better.

But I do think that a world that is 30% Jewish - a Jewish Middle east, a Jewish Europe and a Jewish North-Africa is silly..
and I don't think Zoroastrianism is the thing to save it.

- Just my opinion

 

[kairob]

BUT, please remember that Jews were blamed by Rome, then the Vatican, for a host of problems that they had no control over. They were ostracized and persecuted for thousands of years. Then one man decided to make millions of Jews went up in smoke.

not forgetting the egyptians and babylonians making them slaves... plus the ottomans wernt all that pleasent and the communists were against all religions including the jews...

...and they still claim to be gods favoured people? looks like it...


Look I am not a religious person, I see it purely as a social construct. Looking at it objectively they have no place in this kind of world scale setting. Regardless of the reasons for thier small size (although I think that it is mostly because they are linked to an ethnic group and so as a rule grow as fast as those people.)

 

[sdLeo]

1. If the civ that holds the Holy city (The Papal States, in history) have bad relations with another civ that has that religion. (Say..-7 or -10 relations)

IIRC the Papal States were never in control of Jerusalem... Rome is not the holy city!

 

[kairob]

Yeah but it is the Centre of Catholocism

 

[thenooblet22]

I don't know about your facts, but in my history book, by the time the Islam armies reached Persia, only the elite followed the unpopular Zoroastrianism. Just because the Jewish faith doesn't seek new members, doesn't mean it doesn't win converts. You don't have to be mainstream to be considered important.

 

[biggamer132]

I don't know about your facts, but in my history book, by the time the Islam armies reached Persia, only the elite followed the unpopular Zoroastrianism. Just because the Jewish faith doesn't seek new members, doesn't mean it doesn't win converts. You don't have to be mainstream to be considered important.

Not really. A lot of Iranian**** traditions, including the calendar and the spring New Year's celebrations all have Zoroastrian and pre-Zoroastrian roots. It's true that people of other faiths lived in the Empire, but the religion was a huge part of Persian society right up until that time.

 

[El_Chimpo]

Understanding sources from late antiquity is difficult. Most Sassanid sources from that period are lost leaving sources that have an obvious bias, either Byzantine or Islamic. For all we know every man and his dog was Zoroastrian during the Islamic invasion. I wonder what a Zoroastrian dog would be like.