Alternatives for preset cities

[El Bogus]

Some other suggestions:
Spawn Berlin (as "Brennabor") N of the sulfur, to represent the Wends and also to make sure the Berlin exists for Prussia later.

I disagree. Berlin wasn't that important until the 18th century. To represent the western Slavs some barbs would be enough. The Polabian Slavs were (aside from the Lithuanians) the last pagans of Europe. There was even the Wendish Crusade to christianise the Slavs which didn't really succeed.
Maybe it should be harder to get a grasp on the provinces Brandenburg and Pomerania.

 

[DC123456789]

I disagree. Berlin wasn't that important until the 18th century. To represent the western Slavs some barbs would be enough. The Polabian Slavs were (aside from the Lithuanians) the last pagans of Europe. There was even the Wendish Crusade to christianise the Slavs which didn't really succeed.
Maybe it should be harder to get a grasp on the provinces Brandenburg and Pomerania.

Then it can be called Brandenburg by the Germans until it gets conquered by Prussia, when it gets renamed Berlin (it was already the Hohenzollern capital by the 15th century). Either way, something to represent Brandenburg and make sure Berlin exists by the lategame, if Prussia ever makes it that far.

 

[gilgames]

It would be nice IF prussian AI could do that, but i play a lot and never seen a medicor prussia only weak or dead.
So its better to have berlin as indy then not have.

 

[AbsintheRed]

So, about those Irish cities:
What should remain, and with what chances?
Also, Panopticon's post:

Irish cities: The importance of Teamhair was symoblic, religious and mythic. But as for an urban settlement where many people lived, as opposed to a fortress, this city should simply be Duibhlinn or Áth Cliath. I wonder whether this should be one of those cities with a probability of appearing as one or another.

 

[Force44]

My preference would be (almost all) the plots in Ireland should have a small barb city some time which after a while lose importance (degrade).

My favourite barbarian Irish cities would be Cashel and Armagh because they predate the Norman raids.

 

[DC123456789]

I actually like having all those barbarian cities there; the only problem, in my opinion, is that AI England is too slow conquering them (by about a century, in my games).
Then I again, I suggested them, so I don't exactly have an unbiased opinion.

 

[gilgames]

Ime (in my experience) England never fully conquer Ireland only Dublin and maybe one more and even that takes centuries! or never. One city used to belong to Scotland and/or Norway, but sometimes there is a barb or two.

 

[merijn_v1]

In 1300 AD, there is an event that flips Dublin to England, if Dublin is barbarian and AI only.

 

[AbsintheRed]

In 1300 AD, there is an event that flips Dublin to England, if Dublin is barbarian and AI only.

Yeah, that was added somewhere around Beta 11-12 IIRC
If that wasn't here (and with the current barb setup in Ireland), AI England wouldn't even acquire Dublin in any of the games

 

[gilgames]

In 1300 AD, there is an event that flips Dublin to England, if Dublin is barbarian and AI only.

I would add to it if its indy! sometimes sby get it and loose it too before 1300, if barbs dont take it back it still should flip to england, imo.

 

[DC123456789]

Would a conqueror event (i.e. spawns some troops next to barbarian/independent Dublin) be better? That would make it more likely that England could then go on to capture some of the other cities.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Would a conqueror event (i.e. spawns some troops next to barbarian/independent Dublin) be better? That would make it more likely that England could then go on to capture some of the other cities.

Could be added, sure
But is it that important to have that many barb cities in Ireland?
Sometimes I feel it's an overkill, looks strange to see that part of the map having so many cities compared to other parts of Europe. (at least in the 8-12th century)

 

[Force44]

I just wondered, what is the rationale for the Irish to be represented by barbarians ? (as opposed to (eg) a filler civ (civ unable to talk to other civs and is permanently at war with all civs))

(my own impression is that Ireland is a barbisland to makes it immune to barb vikings)

 

[gilgames]

Do you have a plan to go on with alternative cities in germany, poland, russia and balkan? I think that it was good in france abd italy. I want to see altervatives all over europe too. Also gamewise would be good imo. Sure its for 1.6 now. For example Lubeck-Hamburg would be good.

 

[AbsintheRed]

We can have a couple more opinions, it's very easy to implement them now that the system is already set up.
The only thing needed is a decision about exactly what cities should be implemented in this fashion, and in what form.

We have the most indy cities and placement options in France and Italy, where population density was the highest in Europe for most of the timeframe.
So it's kinda natural that those were the places where we implemented most of the alternative cities.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Couple additional cities were added:
- New indy city: Perekop (as Taphros), 500 AD, starts with walls and Orthodoxy, separating Crimean peninsula from the mainland
- New indy city: Halych, 1124 AD, starts with Orthodoxy, representing the western Rus principalities
- Alternative spawn position for indy Lubeck, one tile south of the current one (60% for the new position, 40% for the old)
- New indy city: Zagreb, 800 AD, early buffer zone between Hungary and Venice (also makes Venetian coastal cities' cultural expansion limited in Croatia)

Not really sure about the spawn date of Perekop, atm it starts as a greek colony, but there might be better solutions.

Zagreb is a little anachronistic, as it was founded by the Hungarian King St. Ladislaus, not long after Croatia came under the Hungarian Crown in the late 11th century.
Maybe naming it Gradec initially would work great? Or that town also only came into prominence after the Zagreb Cathedral was established?
Anyway, that position might be great for gameplay, we will see after some tests how often it will end up in Hungarian hands. And whether it messes up Venetian city positioning.
(after my couple initial tests it seemed it's better to spawn the city before the Venetian birth, usually ended up way too cramped otherwise. even had some tries with 910 and 925, but it was even worse that way)

Btw 800 AD is not that bad, as AFAIK Croatians lived in the Dalmatia region since the 7-8th century.
So while the position itself isn't perfect either, it seems like a nice compromise between history and gameplay (especially when we also take into account the later centuries, when they are a part of Hungary)

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

New indy city: Perekop (as Taphros), 500 AD, starts with walls and Orthodoxy, separating Crimean peninsula from the mainland

Does this mean the last step of the Genoan UHV will be conquering instead of settling? (I'm already past that point in my game, this is more curiosity than anything.)

 

[AbsintheRed]

You need to control those provinces for the Genoan UHV. So yeah, you can conquer the new indy city for it.
But the southern part of the province has 1-2 good city positions, so you can also settle there. Actually you should, in order to prevent another civ settling there.

On the other hand, simply dropping down a settler on the southern part of the peninsula won't be enough, you have to own all cities in the province.
So it makes the UHV somewhat harder, which is a good thing, but also makes it less historical, as the Italians never controlled the northern part AFAIK.
Maybe it would be better to split the province?

 

[DC123456789]

Splitting it would make sense I guess, there was always a clear split between the Greek southern coast and the rest of the peninsula, after all. Wouldn't make much of a difference to the difficulty either way, I think.

What exactly is Perekop/Taphros supposed to represent though?

 

[Force44]

Couple additional cities were added:

Zagreb is a little anachronistic, as it was founded by the Hungarian King St. Ladislaus, not long after Croatia came under the Hungarian Crown in the late 11th century.
Maybe naming it Gradec initially would work great? Or that town also only came into prominence after the Zagreb Cathedral was established?
Anyway, that position might be great for gameplay, we will see after some tests how often it will end up in Hungarian hands. And whether it messes up Venetian city positioning.
(after my couple initial tests it seemed it's better to spawn the city before the Venetian birth, usually ended up way too cramped otherwise. even had some tries with 910 and 925, but it was even worse that way)

Btw 800 AD is not that bad, as AFAIK Croatians lived in the Dalmatia region since the 7-8th century.
So while the position itself isn't perfect either, it seems like a nice compromise between history and gameplay (especially when we also take into account the later centuries, when they are a part of Hungary)

Andautonia is a name I found on wikipedia that might be a suitable name for the city in 500 AD.

As an independent city it will probably get conquered by barbarians a couple of hundred years late.

sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb
excerpt:

Zagreb is a city with a rich history dating from the Roman times to the present day. The oldest settlement located in the vicinity of the city was the Roman Andautonia, in today's Ščitarjevo. The name "Zagreb" is recorded in 1134, in reference to the foundation of the settlement at Kaptol in 1094. Zagreb became a free royal town in 1242. In 1851 Zagreb had its first mayor, Janko Kamauf, and in 1945 it was made the capital of Croatia when the demographic boom and the urban sprawl made the city as it is known today.

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andautonia
excerpt:

Andautonia was a Roman settlement located on the southern bank of the river Sava, located in the modern-day village of Šćitarjevo, southeast of the city of Zagreb, Croatia.
...
The settlement existed between the 1st and the 4th century, after which it is believed to have been destroyed during the Great Migration in Europe.