Alternatives for preset cities

[AbsintheRed]

I think we're all in general agreement for most of the cities mentioned.

Cool, will include most of them soon enough

 

[DC123456789]

Could you post a table/chart of what you plan to implement?

 

[DC123456789]

Also, some other ideas regarding the British Isles:

Edinburgh wasn't a very important city until it became Scotland's capital in the 12th century; therefore it would make more sense for it to first appear when Scotland spawn. Instead, to represent the Picts, I think it would make more sense to have a 50-50 chance of spawning either Scone (as Scaig, on 37, 65 or 38, 65) or Inverness (as Inbhir Nis, on 37, 67) to represent either the Northern Picts or the Southern Picts. I suppose they could disappear on the Scottish spawn, although both remained important cities throughout the time period and would be fine being flipped. It would also be interesting to spawn Alt Clut on (36, 63) to represent the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which would then disappear shortly before the Scottish spawn (as historically).

Also, I think it would fit to spawn some more independent cities in Ireland, so that actually taking it over is the long, violent slog it should be rather than just taking over barbarian Dublin and settling the rest. We could have:
- Downpatrick (as Rath Celtair) on (33, 60) or (33, 61) if that's to close to Dublin to represent Ulaid
- Cashel (as Caisel) on (30, 57) or (30, 56) to represent Munster -> becomes Cork once conquered, if on (30, 56)
- Rathcroghan (as Cruiachain) on (29, 60) to represent Connacht -> becomes Sligo once conquered
- Possibly Hill of Tara (as Teamhair) on (32, 58) to represent Mide -> becomes Dublin once conquered (basically, just renaming the currently spawned Dublin)

Leinster will have to be left out in this scenario I guess, since Dún Ailinne is right next to Dublin/Tara and Dublin is obviously a more important city going forwards.

 

[Swarbs]

I do like the suggestion by Swarbs in the 3rd, 4th and 5th post of this thread.

Small request to everyone. If you suggest variations of a city, please do it like below. That is the easiest way for us to include them.
Pool1: Nantes (36, 43, 60%), Rennes (37,44, 20%), Vannes (35, 43, 20%)
Pool2: Bordeaux (x, y, %), La Rochelle (x, y, %), Limoges (x, y, %)
Pool3: Toulouse (x, y, %), Toulouse Alternative location (x, y, %), Montpellier (x, y, %)
Pool4: Lyon (x, y, 100%)
Pool5: Taranto (x, y, 20%)
etc.
(Spawn chances in pool1 are random to give an example)

The code picks 1 entry from the list, taken the appearing chance into account. The appearing chances don't need to add up to 100%. That would mean there is a chance no city appears at all. A pool can also exist of just 1 city ofcourse.

Is there any way to see the coordinates of a tile in the game? I'm sure there is but I can't remember what it was - this would make it easier to give and discuss proposed coordinates.

 

[DC123456789]

Enable cheats in CivilizationIV.ini (chipotle), and then you can hold down either Shift, Ctrl, or Alt (I don't remember which) and hover over the tile.

 

[AbsintheRed]

First step, I added the following cities:
Marseilles, 500AD: Marseilles (50%, "Massilia"), Aix-en-Provence (50%, "Aquae Sextiae")
Toulouse, 500AD: Toulouse (30%, "Tolosa"), Toulouse alternative position (30%, "Tolosa"), Narbonne (40%, "Narbo")
Caen, 500AD: Caen (100%, "Caen"), starts with Catholicism, population size 2
Nantes, 500AD: Nantes (50%, "Naoned"), Vannes (30%, "Gwened"), Rennes (20%, "Roazhon")
Calais, 800AD: Calais (50%, "Calais"), Dunkerque (50%, "Dunkerque")

In France still thinking about Bordeaux and it's area, Montpellier, and a couple others

 

[DC123456789]

Montpellier probably doesn't need to spawn at all. Toulouse or Narbonne is good for that area, I think.

 

[gilgames]

Bordeaux shouldn't spawn at all, any other tile is better than that.

 

[DC123456789]

Or we could improve the Bordeaux tile...

 

[AbsintheRed]

these are the currently included ones:
- Sicily, 500AD: Palermo (60%, "Palermo"), Syracuse (40%, "Syracuse")
- Provence, 500AD: Marseille (50%, "Massilia"), Aix-en-Provence (50%, "Aquae Sextiae")
- Languedoc, 500AD: Toulouse (30%, "Tolosa"), Toulouse alternative position (30%, "Tolosa"), Narbonne (40%, "Narbo")
- Normandy, 500AD: Caen (100%, "Caen"), starts with Catholicism, population size 2
- Brittany, 500AD: Nantes (50%, "Naoned"), Vannes (30%, "Gwened"), Rennes (20%, "Roazhon")
- Picardy, 800AD: Calais (50%, "Calais"), Dunkirk (50%, "Dunkerque")
- Tuscany, 500AD: Firenze (40%, "Florentia"), Pisa (20%, "Pisae"), Ancona (20%, "Ankon"), Rimini (20%, "Ariminum")
- South Italy, 500AD: Napoli (40%, "Neapolis"), Benevento (40%, "Beneventum"), Taranto (20%, "Tarentum")
- Navarre, 700AD: Pamplona (60%, "Pamplona"), Pamplona alternative position (20%, "Pamplona"), Saint Sebastian (20%, "San Sebastián")
- Picts in Scotland, 600AD: Scone (50%, "Scaig"), Inverness (50%, "Inbhir Nis"), barbarian city, population size 1

Any comments?
For example on San Sebastian, or the spawn date for Palermo and the Pictish cities?

 

[DC123456789]

I'm not sure about adding Saint Sebastian - it doesn't seem to have been important to any extent until the 12th century, shortly before it was conquered by Castile, which makes it a poor city to represent Navarra with. I'd say just the two positions of Pamplona are fine.

600 AD for the Pictish cities seems fine, it doesn't really matter that much. I'd suggest 550 for the first firmly attested Pictish king, but that makes hardly a difference at all.

How important was Rimini? I feel like it was significantly less important than the other cities in that list (Florence, Pisa, Ancona) and I'm not sure whether it deserves to spawn or not.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Also, I think it would fit to spawn some more independent cities in Ireland, so that actually taking it over is the long, violent slog it should be rather than just taking over barbarian Dublin and settling the rest. We could have:
- Downpatrick (as Rath Celtair) on (33, 60) or (33, 61) if that's to close to Dublin to represent Ulaid
- Cashel (as Caisel) on (30, 57) or (30, 56) to represent Munster -> becomes Cork once conquered, if on (30, 56)
- Rathcroghan (as Cruiachain) on (29, 60) to represent Connacht -> becomes Sligo once conquered
- Possibly Hill of Tara (as Teamhair) on (32, 58) to represent Mide -> becomes Dublin once conquered (basically, just renaming the currently spawned Dublin)

Leinster will have to be left out in this scenario I guess, since Dún Ailinne is right next to Dublin/Tara and Dublin is obviously a more important city going forwards.

Might be very fun to have a strong barbarian stronghold in the whole of Ireland, so it isn't a very good target even for the Viking civs. They should go for England and Italy instead.
So all cities are barbarian there, and since they are concealed, won't really disturb the outside world. On the other hand it would be hard to establish a long-lasting presence there.

It might easily get out of hands though balance-wise.
Also leads to some problems in various situations where barbs would raze some cities there.
And with the English AI of course.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not sure about adding Saint Sebastian - it doesn't seem to have been important to any extent until the 12th century, shortly before it was conquered by Castile, which makes it a poor city to represent Navarra with. I'd say just the two positions of Pamplona are fine.

600 AD for the Pictish cities seems fine, it doesn't really matter that much. I'd suggest 550 for the first firmly attested Pictish king, but that makes hardly a difference at all.

How important was Rimini? I feel like it was significantly less important than the other cities in that list (Florence, Pisa, Ancona) and I'm not sure whether it deserves to spawn or not.

Ok, I'm fine with changing those.
Especially since Rimini is on the Cattle resource currently.
Wanted to have an option near Pamplone on the coast, but not that married to the idea.

 

[DC123456789]

Might be very fun to have a strong barbarian stronghold in the whole of Ireland, so it isn't a very good target even for the Viking civs. They should go for England and Italy instead.
So all cities are barbarian there, and since they are concealed, won't really disturb the outside world. On the other hand it would be hard to establish a long-lasting presence there.

It might easily get out of hands though balance-wise.
Also leads to some problems in various situations where barbs would raze some cities there.
And with the English AI of course.

In all honesty I was thinking they could be independent cities to avoid the razing issue and make them harder to conquer, but you do have a good point that a whole bunch of barbarian cities would make holding Ireland the giant headache it should be unless you control all of it.

Perhaps you could decreased the barbarian propensity to raze if that becomes a problem, with exceptions for certain types of barbarians (e.g. Mongols or Vikings)? City razing by barbarians doesn't generally really seem to fit well with the scope and time period, except for those major exceptions, for example.

Yeah, my main concern is with the English AI. It might be prudent to give them an AI-conquerer event on Ireland if you go along with this and England fails to conquer Ireland often enough.

 

[AbsintheRed]

There is a single barbarian civ, no easy way to have different rules for a few specific barb units.
Well, surely it could be added, especially if I tie it to whole unit types, but don't really want to spend time on this for such a minor thing.

Anyway, will try it out, couldn't cause too much harm
The English AI already has some help in Ireland, ATM only for Dublin, but that can be extended if needed.

 

[Swarbs]

Ok, I'm fine with changing those.
Especially since Rimini is on the Cattle resource currently.
Wanted to have an option near Pamplone on the coast, but not that married to the idea.

I would replace Rimini with a 40% chance for Pisa, as Pisa was arguably as important as Florence for some points in the Middle Ages.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not sure about adding Saint Sebastian - it doesn't seem to have been important to any extent until the 12th century, shortly before it was conquered by Castile, which makes it a poor city to represent Navarra with. I'd say just the two positions of Pamplona are fine.

600 AD for the Pictish cities seems fine, it doesn't really matter that much. I'd suggest 550 for the first firmly attested Pictish king, but that makes hardly a difference at all.

How important was Rimini? I feel like it was significantly less important than the other cities in that list (Florence, Pisa, Ancona) and I'm not sure whether it deserves to spawn or not.

I would replace Rimini with a 40% chance for Pisa, as Pisa was arguably as important as Florence for some points in the Middle Ages.

Done.
One last batch to go with Wales, Ireland, Hungary, maybe a couple others.

 

[AbsintheRed]

In all honesty I was thinking they could be independent cities to avoid the razing issue and make them harder to conquer, but you do have a good point that a whole bunch of barbarian cities would make holding Ireland the giant headache it should be unless you control all of it.

Perhaps you could decreased the barbarian propensity to raze if that becomes a problem, with exceptions for certain types of barbarians (e.g. Mongols or Vikings)? City razing by barbarians doesn't generally really seem to fit well with the scope and time period, except for those major exceptions, for example.

Yeah, my main concern is with the English AI. It might be prudent to give them an AI-conquerer event on Ireland if you go along with this and England fails to conquer Ireland often enough.

In the end I think adding all those cities is way too much.
1.4 will have them for fun, but just to try it out.
My intention for a later version is to have Dublin in 100%, and 1 of the other 3 cities randomly chosen.
And who knows, might be that it's so fun that I leave it this way.

 

[DC123456789]

In the end I think adding all those cities is way too much.
1.4 will have them for fun, but just to try it out.
My intention for a later version is to have Dublin in 100%, and 1 of the other 3 cities randomly chosen.
And who knows, might be that it's so fun that I leave it this way.

As much as I think it would be interesting to have them all, you're probably right. But let's see.

 

[DC123456789]

Some other suggestions:
Spawn Berlin (as "Brennabor") N of the sulfur, to represent the Wends and also to make sure the Berlin exists for Prussia later.
Spawn Perekop (as "Or Qapi") at either side of the river seperating Crimea from the mainland (2N or 3N of the sheep), to represent the Crimean Khanate. It wasn't actually the Crimean capital but using that city instead leaves southern Crimea clear for Byzantine/Venetian/Genoan/Ottoman colonies, as it should.
I also think that a city could spawn to represent Croatia, but I'm not sure what it should be, since all the historical Croatian capitals would interefere with Dalmatia too much. Maybe Sisek could work?