Americans

[southafrica]

Well, according to the history books, America's own contribution to world history BEFORE 1917 (when they got off their collective arses and help in a World War) amounted to nothing more than the genoicide of many Indian tribes and the export of luxuires and raw materials to Europe. End of list of contributions. AFTER 1917 is another matter altogether…

My point is that arguably until 17-wahtever is what, America as a nation didn't exist. Then it spent the following 140(?) years ignoring the world pretty much as it did before. So the question follows that what is an introspective baby nation doing in game that spans 6000 years?

IMHO I don't think the American nation has been "tested" if that's the word to prove that is has the strength and endurance of many of the other nations. As we speak, America is still crumbling under awful race relations, poverty gap, a corrupt poilitical establishment with a complicit, dumb-downed mass media. To be blunt, America won't fall because of an outside emeny, but because it's own internal problems will kill it.

How's that for serious?

HAHA just when I thought you might be reasonable you just prove me wrong, your hysterical! Are you foolish enough not to understand that those problems plague all nations? Whom may I asked bombed london? Whom is rioting in France... Thanks for showing your ignorance! All those problems are problems with western civilization and are not uniquely American Problems!

 

[ngin]

southafrica wrote:
However, I think that since this has been down multiple times the level of the arguements have fallen. Why post a long response when you have done it X times before... I think this sort of resignation is a result of the number of times it has been done. I really wish the search was enabled, then you would understand why...





/agree

and the conversation is not about the usa in the civ game anymore.

there where also some good replys...and actually this topic has changed my mind a bit on the topic....
that guy wo pointed that the game isnt all about ancient civs is right i think and from 1700/2000 take a lot of turns ingame so in that respect it would be strange not to have the usa in that time period atleast.

ah well im done with this topic and hope it dies soon before more ppl make an ass of themselves and in doing so also discredit their fellow citizens.

yer a lot on these forums arent u southafrica?..quick to reply anyways (-:

 

[Gottschalk]

Rednecks are American. Eurotrash are European. We will use the word European, and its derivatives, to mean non-American in the sense that a Eurodollar account means any account in a foreign country, from an American perspective, denominated in (USD) dollars.

What I think is funny about Eurotrash bashing Americans based on a few rednecks is that they are exactly the same as what they despise, except from a different country. Eurotrash are just as foolish and jingoistic as their counterparts.

Rednecks will remind us how bad all Europeans are based on a few Eurotrash idiots. They will take a myopic, naive and stereotypical view that is insulting to reasonable people. Of course we get another salvo back from Eurotrash reminding the world how bad all Americans are based on a few Redneck morons. It’s then their turn to take a myopic, naive and stereotypical view that is insulting to reasonable people.

I can't stop my lesser countrymen from being stupid any more than you can stop yours. All one can do is appreciate the dignity of other enlightened people and look at someone as an individual with their own virtues and vices.

But, as always, generalizations and arbitrary divisions between us will rule the day. We certainly shouldn't be trying to advance the whole, human civilization; oh no. Let's keep fighting about whose Dad could beat up whose.

People are often overly nationalistic when they are, themselves, rather lackluster in terms of accomplishments or productivity. They shroud themselves in their local *sports team, *political party, *religion or* nation and build their fragile ego around it. A successful person rarely opens their mouth against others in a vain attempt to feel better or curry favor.

*These things are not bad when they are enjoyed in a reasonable manner but we all know that all of these things practiced with fanaticism and excess can lead to undesirable results.

 

[pjdodd]

All those problems are problems with western civilization and are not uniquely American Problems!

I never said they were. Try reading the posts before replying.

I was making the point that in America these problems are much worse than in other countries. Also whereas is older nations as France and UK we have learnt to weather those problems, in America they haven't.

 

[southafrica]

At work, slow time of year... wish i had a laptop to play on the train to work... (and lunch)

 

[southafrica]

I never said they were. Try reading the posts before replying.

I was making the point that in America these problems are much worse than in other countries. Also whereas is older nations as France and UK we have learnt to weather those problems, in America they haven't.

Learned? are you SERIOUS, i recommend you go to BBC.co.uk... please stop spreading your propaganda! I don't spread mine, and you shouldn't spread yours...

 

[pjdodd]

Learned? are you SERIOUS

Look back at the hysteria America went through after the Twin Towers were destroyed. In London, the next day, people went to work and did their usual stuff (not on the tube system as it was messed up).

 

[Gully Foyle]

Well, according to the history books, America's own contribution to world history BEFORE 1917 (when they got off their collective arses and help in a World War) amounted to nothing more than the genoicide of many Indian tribes and the export of luxuires and raw materials to Europe. End of list of contributions. AFTER 1917 is another matter altogether…

My point is that arguably until 17-wahtever is what, America as a nation didn't exist. Then it spent the following 140(?) years ignoring the world pretty much as it did before. So the question follows that what is an introspective baby nation doing in game that spans 6000 years?

IMHO I don't think the American nation has been "tested" if that's the word to prove that is has the strength and endurance of many of the other nations. As we speak, America is still crumbling under awful race relations, poverty gap, a corrupt poilitical establishment with a complicit, dumb-downed mass media. To be blunt, America won't fall because of an outside emeny, but because it's own internal problems will kill it.

How's that for serious?

In terms of serious, it's laughable.

Thanks for proving the point of my post, which is that this thread is not intended as a rational discussion of inclusion of America as a playable civilization in the game, but rather as a clearing house for people who hate the US to air their outraged views, and your post couldn't be more full of venemous outrage at the United States.

Littered with loaded words, and venemous, cynical generalities, your post proves that there's no point "debating" you over the inclusion of America as a playable civilization because it's based purely on outrage and emotion in which no debate could possibly take root. Your opinions are set, so you post only to see your words in print. There's nothing scholarly in your post (hell, you don't even know when the United States was formed as a country!) and thus no scholarly debate can educate you.

Just mod America out of your game and be done with it. My lone question to you remains, what are you doing even purchasing products from a country you loathe so passionately? Buy games produced in your own country or from the various other countries that you respect!

 

[southafrica]

Look back at the hysteria America went through after the Twin Towers were destroyed. In London, the next day, people went to work and did their usual stuff (not on the tube system as it was messed up).

So, going back the next day shows that you have solved race/religious issues? Are you forgetting that the bombers were homegrown as it were? Since when was acceptance of violence the solution to the cause? (such as inclusion, assimilation..) So by your logic; I walk down the street, someone calls me a cracker than smashes my window and stabs my wife If i just open the door ignore the aggressor and drive to work, I have learned to solve the race/religious issue? Since when is passive acceptance the solution? (I am not implying this is what is happening in the UK whatsoever, but I hardly think that the UK has solved the underlying issues either.)

 

[pjdodd]

it's based purely on outrage and emotion in which no debate could possibly take root. Your opinions are set, so you post only to see your words in print. There's nothing scholarly in your post (hell, you don't even know when the United States was formed as a country!) and thus no scholarly debate can educate you.

Let me ask you a scholarly question then: What was America's international policy before 1917? The short answer is it didn't have one. So my question remains unanswered: what is a young nation that remained outside of international affairs before 1917 doing in a game that spans 6000 years?

My lone question to you remains, what are you doing even purchasing products from a country you loathe so passionately?

I don't loathe nor love America. Now who's using loaded words and generalisations...if its good for you it's good for me!

 

[southafrica]

Let me ask you a scholarly question then: What was America's international policy before 1917? The short answer is it didn't have one. So my question remains unanswered: what is a young nation that remained outside of international affairs before 1917 doing in a game that spans 6000 years?



I don't loathe nor love America. Now who's using loaded words and generalisations...if its good for you it's good for me!

Hmm, it was called Isolation. Also we were more concerned with manifest destiny than getting bogged down in european wars. By the way which power opened up Japan to the rest of the world? What was happening in China? Ever heard of the Spanish American War? Have you asked mexico what happened in the 1800's?

Thanks,

 

[pjdodd]

So, going back the next day shows that you have solved race/religious issues?

Read the posts people!
I said we weathered the problems better, not solved them.

 

[pjdodd]

Hmm, it was called Isolation.

So answer my question…

 

[southafrica]

So answer my question…

Perhaps you should read the above post, I did answer your question. Perhaps you need a world history refresher. So weathering the storm is? I fail to see how that makes the situation ANY better than what the US faces...

 

[pjdodd]

Ever heard of the Spanish American War? Have you asked mexico what happened in the 1800's?

Quabbling with your next door neighbour doesnt count as international!

As for Japan, wasn't it the economists and industrialists that helped opening it up while the Government policy was still not to get involved?

 

[southafrica]

Quabbling with your next door neighbour doesnt count as international!

As for Japan, wasn't it the economists and industrialists that helped opening it up while the Government policy was still not to get involved?

Well considering that landing on soil was punishable by death... It wasn't until foreigners were allowed in that economists and industrialists were allowed in, and that wasn't until the American Expedition went into port. Well I would hardly call the Phillipines a neighbor

 

[ngin]

Gottshalk wrote:
People are often overly nationalistic when they are, themselves, rather lackluster in terms of accomplishments or productivity. They shroud themselves in their local *sports team, *political party, *religion or* nation and build their fragile ego around it. A successful person rarely opens their mouth against others in a vain attempt to feel better or curry favor.

you got a good point here...i dont agree with ppl becoming more nationalistic or (over) patriotic when they "lackluster in terms of accomplishments" as u put it..a nation can become nationalistic for several reasons (like propaganda in 1930s/40s germany ).

but yeah in my opinion it seldom a good thing if a nation becomes fiercly patriotic...a bad result of it is that its almost impossible to discuss matters about their country on a objective level.
i get the feel a bit from this topic...you cant post anything remotly bad about the usa or you get 4 replys promoting the usa and ignoring the commenst you made...ok some of the "anti american" replys werent that intelligent but some really where and where things you might even could have learned from (or atleast change your perspective a bit, wich is always good imo)....but these intelligent post wont even get considered cause you cant get past the "patriotic barrier"

i dont know if some/a lot/most ppl in america are like that but the number of "patriotic posts" from american users are plentyfull (ofcourse thats not a fair representation of all the ppl living in america)

ofcourse theres nothing wrong with the love for your country, but i really do think some ppl take it to the next level.
also i see some american ppl thry to get even by making "anti euro" statements (valid points or not)...but that doesnt really touch me..and neither does it ppl from other european countrys i quess..i dont live in europe..i live in holland, france,germany whatever.
but even if you bash holland...if u have a valid point against holland (and there are plenty) id be the first to agree with you

 

[Gully Foyle]

Let me ask you a scholarly question then: What was America's international policy before 1917? The short answer is it didn't have one.

Didn't have one? Are you serious? Wow, you are digging yourself deep!

I don't loathe nor love America. Now who's using loaded words and generalisations...if its good for you it's good for me!

Huh? Let me repost this for you, then:

America's own contribution to world history BEFORE 1917 (when they got off their collective arses and help in a World War) amounted to nothing more than the genoicide of many Indian tribes and the export of luxuires and raw materials to Europe. End of list of contributions

Dismissive, wildly cynical, full of ignorant generalizations, and insulting summary. Got off their collective arses is extremely loaded language.

Then it spent the following 140(?) years ignoring the world pretty much as it did before.

Loaded with cynicism and wildly incorrect.

As we speak, America is still crumbling under awful race relations, poverty gap, a corrupt poilitical establishment with a complicit, dumb-downed mass media.

Again, loaded with cynical generalities and implied dismissiveness. Your opinion on the United States and what you believe it to be as a country couldn't be more black and white.

You may as well dispense with the feigned-innocence, "Hate America? Me?" routine, as you've made yourself quite clear.

Why not own up to it, anyway? Hating this country is quite fashionable! You have many friends!

 

[pjdodd]

What is a young nation that remained largely outside of world affairs before 1917 doing in a game that spans 6000 years?

The points concerning what degree American remained isolated before 1917 are a distraction from the hub of the question, which is, in a turn based game of say 1000 turns, shouldn't America be in very few of those turns?

I'm not making a make-it-real arguement simply trying to understand the logic behind including America from the start (I'm assuming that economics of the game buying public count very little for the moment!)

 

[pjdodd]

too much ti quote

So ALL the inidan tribes that were present in 1492 are still present today?

It is a factual statement to say that they were hunted and destroyed - genocide.