An “Extinct Civilization Manifesto”

use 4 slots for zero era techs , and require combinations there of . People might hate me using this single scenario , LotM , as an example anywhere . Angmar , Mordor and lsengard are orcs or something . 2 sciences for the first era , 2 era zero techs . One of them defines being an orc , one defines tribe . Using them in combination with the regular sciences , Angmar and Mordor have two great wonders ı can't build , Mordor has a great wonder only Mordor can build , at least two small wonders for each ... Mine die by midway through the first era , Angmar and Mordor can have a second Forbidden Palace , and ı can't . And because buildings can become useless with certain techs and this great wonder that autoproduces an army every 20 turn can not be built by Angmar and Mordor and even if they capture it from the civ that build it , they will not get armies and if the city is captured by others , there will be armies . And Dwarves know extra two resources because of their specific zero techs combining with a regular first and second era techs , no units or buildings will be available to other civs , no matter what , as long as those techs are marked untradeable . 4 zero era techs are mighty variable , each civ could have a totally unique tech tree , of sorts .
 
Been so long since I thought about it - are we really limited to no more than four Era Zero techs?
Each CIV is limited to 4 techs to start with, but the number of starting techs can be unlimited, AFAIK.

For DR, I have 8 Trait-based starting techs, 5 Culture-group based starting techs, and 30 civ (tribe) based techs, for a total of 43.
 
I was asking if 4 zero era techs is the maximum. That would be much more limiting - couldn't give one to each civ, for example.
4 max per civ to start with, but I assume unlimited possible techs (with I am sure the game getting overloaded at some point).

In my example above, 43 zero-era techs, each tribe getting 2 trait-based, one CG-based, and one unique for their tribe. Each based on what traits and CG they have been assigned.
 
I was asking if 4 zero era techs is the maximum. That would be much more limiting - couldn't give one to each civ, for example.
Escape from Zombie Island has four human civs and one Zombie civ.
For their separate tech paths that means one ‘Humanity’ shared zero-era tech and its equivalent for the Zombies, then some for each individual human civ, which already gives us a total of six, and also one for civilians, which makes seven. So the game allows at least seven zero-era techs without crashing.
 
Wow, what a thread. I started reading with interest and didn't realize until I saw DPII and Kryten that it's as old as my account, but I've apparently always missed it.

"Anyway, that is thread-necromancy!" - Steph, 12 years ago

Maybe there should be a stickied thread that has links to the "conceptual" work of people like Oz.

That's a good idea. I have many in my subscription history. Maybe a page on the mod wiki so we can all pitch in?
 
"Anyway, that is thread-necromancy!" - Steph, 12 years ago
Steph hasn't been a mod here for many years and he hasn't officially logged on for at least 2. :/
 
Hey, Oz, since this thread never really dies I thought I'd make a suggestion: what if the Aztecs had, instead of dedicating themselves to procuring blood sacrifices because otherwise the sun would never come up, dedicated themselves to better things, like seriously conquering everyone around them?
What if they'd managed to reject the Spanish and managed to hold on to their Empire? Maybe a lucky sling-shot or javelin could've killed Cortés and the Spanish could have been forced to teach metallurgy and gunpowder-making to the Aztecs.

It would be the contemporary equivalent of the Japanese learning from the Portuguese new technologies (how to make plate armour and matchlock firearms) and tactics (co-ordinated shock cavalry attacks, mass spear formations, massed arquebus fire). And nearly conquering Korea with it.

The Aztecs were perpetually challenged by not having the infrastructure to reach either cost. This was problematic, as the Aztecs sources of protein were quite limited (indeed, there are a number of theories associating the mass scale sacrificing of people as a way of augmenting this.) Had they progressed technologically, perhaps-has already been suggested-they that not only were not conquered by, but managed to imitate, to some greater lesser degree, European technology.

The Aztecs are also possibly the greatest challenge I can think of, to apply my model to. That being said, they would have wound up being a combination of three of my paradigms: Mountainous, Jungle, and Maritime. I believe that this would result in:

loose order land combat units, given that they would be challenged by both jungles and mountains, and would need to cross both mountains and jungles to expand both northward and south: so, I would suspect that their ongoing military organization would remain based around loose order, units and (ultimately) high horsepower to weight ratio armored fighting vehicles, which would suit both their home terrain of mountains and jungles, as well as being easiest to transport by ship. Also, in this hypothetical scenario, it would've been extremely beneficial to them if they had somehow been exposed to, and adopted, the Incan system of roadways and messengers. This would have meant roads ultimately crossing mountains, cutting through jungles, and-critically-reaching both the Caribbean and Pacific coasts. Having done that latter, I believe that (if they had learned how to do it) relatively simple biremes would have allowed them to readily conquer the entirety of the Caribbean (assuming that no more nasty Europeans showed up to spoil the party.)

Nonetheless, using my paradigm, I believe that they could be considered a category 3 Civ, with the "Maritime Variation."
 
Wait. What? The Aztecs did reach the Pacific and the Atlantic.
 
Yes, but (1) They never got around to salting fish, and building the Inca-style system of roads and runners to feed protein-challenged Tenochtitlan, and (2) The only Aztec ruins I know of in Florida are in Orlando.
 
2) Good luck trying to tell the Civ engine that its ports cannot form a trade network from Mexico to Florida because it's not ‘Atlantic’ (;)) and 1) given that manflesh (as Christopher Lee's Saruman calls it) isn't that good a source of nutrients I wouldn't rely too much on such a theory. Also you have to take into account the fact that not everyone was allowed to eat humans and it was as a special occasion, which does not make it into a staple. Least of all with there being at least two hundred thousand people in Tenochtitlan alone and sacrifices maybe reaching a tenth of that number in the entire empire a year. The numbers just don't add up.
 
Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig for "footnotes" (and, otherwise, I certainly would for you - Law Firm & All That ;) ) but I was long ago persuaded that the Aztec sacrifices were a 24/7 operation, with (specifically) the limbs of the slain being thrown into a stew reserved for the, um, "privileged." The numbers, in general, are always a good question here, as the only local mammal around to eat was the guinea pig (although I do recall hearing, what I can only call speculation, that the chihuahua was bred for food.) The modern Mexican diet of rice & beans provides sufficient protein, but we all know that there wasn't any rice in the Americas then.
 
Holy Huitzilopochtli I can't believe you're still peddling this stuff after your last embarrassment. At least I can now put my degree to use.

The Aztecs were perpetually challenged by not having the infrastructure to reach either cost. This was problematic, as the Aztecs sources of protein were quite limited (indeed, there are a number of theories associating the mass scale sacrificing of people as a way of augmenting this.) Had they progressed technologically, perhaps-has already been suggested-they that not only were not conquered by, but managed to imitate, to some greater lesser degree, European technology.

They had roads to the coasts. Here's an example of a route, from Berdan's Aztec Imperial Strategies, pretty much the penultimate work on them. He points out also that numerous tributaries' only obligations were road maintenance and road repair.
Spoiler :


There were also navigable rivers, and 3-ton canoes that could carry more food than pickup trucks:
Mexicolore said:
At the other extreme, the largest canoes, made of straight-grained spruce trees, were 50 or more feet in length, capable of carrying either 60 passengers or 3 tons of maize. Little wonder that the Náhuatl word for canoe was acalli or ‘water-house’, from the two words atl (water) and calli or house: the Spanish noted that Aztec boatmen would often sleep in their travelling canoes on long journeys...
Not that the Mexicah specifically needed to get to the coast for fish, they were sitting on a massive lake, their part being mostly freshwater thanks to the dikes they built. Europeans unfortunately did not well understand how to maintain the dikes and prevent the lake from flooding, so they drained it. Here's how the basin looked in the Late Horizon, lake fully and obviously present. Pretty big isn't it.
Spoiler 2 images, from Berdan again :




Aztec sources of protein were in any case better than their counterparts across the sea. Animals are not the only source of protein, and even if that were true they had domesticated ducks, turkeys, and semi-domesticated rabbits and deer. Also, they did in fact salt fish (yes it's an article about the Classic Maya, but we also know salted fish was sold at Tlatelolco) and harvest tecuitatl. Anahuac was in fact a major production center of salt, particularly in the western lakes. Humans are furthermore not a good source of protein. It is true there was ritual cannibalism, but we know from primary accounts that it was optional and never more than an ounce of meat at a meal. Your "theory" was debunked decades ago. Here's some data from Sanders' The Basin of Mexico: Ecological Processes in the Evolution of a Civilization, a book you should read, it addresses everything you've said.
Spoiler 2 images :




You'll see there were no guinea pigs - these and cuy ranching did not spread as a domesticate further north than Colombia. Domesticated Turkeys have some disadvantages over guinea pigs, namely they take up a lot more space, so they were not necessarily raised in crowded Tenochtitlan or Anahuac itself. Rather they were imported from neighboring midland provinces. This is of course not including agricultural resources,

See Ross Hassig's Trade, Tribute, and Transportation: The Sixteenth-Century Political Economy of the Valley of Mexico. I concur with you that Mesoamerican logistics technology was inferior to that of the old world - with no draft animals, it essentially reached peak efficiency (overland, anyway) with the invention of the tumpline during the Archaic period (pre-1600 BCE). Nonetheless, it was adequate for Aztec needs. Here's what Hassig says on the subject in the aforementioned paper:
Spoiler 2 images. Note he is discussing only overland :



Tenochtitlan is only roughly 400 km away from the Gulf Coast, not exceeding this limit, and much of this distance had roads and waterways. We also know from colonial documents that fish and other food supplies were transported with pre-hispanic technology well into the seventeenth century, and the Codex Mendoza even gives documentary evidence of food imported from their provinces on the Gulf Coast. Otherwise they would have little to no reason to conquer that land. There's even a mountain called Macuiltepetl, "Fifth Mountain" because it was the fifth major landmark when heading to the coast from Anahuac by river.

The modern Mexican diet of rice & beans provides sufficient protein, but we all know that there wasn't any rice in the Americas then.
There indeed was rice in the Americas - wild rice - but it was gathered rather than farmed. Anyway there were beans, among other crops, which had dense protein content. Here's the graphs:
Spoiler 5 images. Ignore Pumpkin, this study was done on an area that grows pumpkins. Mesoamericans grew another type of squash in its place. :







Also I should note the graph for corn is without Nixtamalization

Amaranth, though not commonly eaten today, in particular was very important in pre-hispanic times, accounting for possibly 80% of an Aztec commoner's carbohydrates, and it has about 1.3x times the protein of rice or maize per serving. The problem with people who peddle this """"theory"""" is they seem to believe that A) protein only comes from animals B) the only animals are cows, pigs, and goats and C) that Old World peasants were eating three steak dinners a day everyday. Let us not forget avocados, maguey, nopal leaves and prickly pears, which have decent protein density as well.


(2) The only Aztec ruins I know of in Florida are in Orlando.
Wow. I never thought someone so smart and respectable could start peddling Mormon hyper-diffusionist pseudoarcheology. I guess I shouldn't be that surprised since you're also repeating a debunked myth from 70 years ago. This is Ancient Aliens-tier stuff dude. Don't worry, I'm not saying it's your fault, I know it can be hard to avoid this stuff when just starting out. Florida's ancient monuments are attributed to their very own civilization, often the Calusa and other Southeastern variants of the Mississippian complex. I'm not sure how you can believe they were in Florida but somehow can't transport food more than a couple kilometers.

Moderator Action: It's important to take into consideration intent when responding to a forum post. With that in mind, please be respectful when addressing other forum members. Overtly rude, condescending, or derogatory comments are considered flaming/trolling. ~ LK
 
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I'll just say that civ games/mods, like fiction writing, are not meant to be 100% historically accurate. There are very few, if any games of Civ3 ever played that mirror history in a fully accurate way. It's all about the 'What If' factor. I'm not saying anyone here is fully right or wrong, just saying that to me, it doesn't matter.

Of my 30+ short stories, two are Historical Fiction. One involves WWII, the other 9/11. The key word in that genre is 'Fiction.' I can't tell you how many people have criticized both of those pieces because minor details cannot be proven as have happened. It's fiction, folks! This is a game, or moreover a mod of a game. Have fun with it.
 
Actually, Mopean, I should interject that, given my more protracted relationship with Oz and his sense of humour, I think the Orlando reference was because of theme parks in the area.

But, yes, back to the main issue, I've been digging myself into my sources on paper on the Aztecs and human sacrifice is just not worth it as a protein source.
Some parts of the bodies were consumed by humans and others thrown to animals.

Also, yes, they did have the wonder that was Laxe Texcoco before the idiot Spaniards decided to just build a tunnel and drain the entire thing.
And the Aztecs had classes other than the plant-growers and the rulers, with different economic rôles, so clearly their production was not at a mere subsistence level.
And also the great markets and hunting… and, not least, I found lists of recipes collected by the earliest Spanish chroniclers and there were many sources of protein, animal (vertebrate and invertebrate) and otherwise.
 
Actually, Mopean, I should interject that, given my more protracted relationship with Oz and his sense of humour, I think the Orlando reference was because of theme parks in the area.

:yup:

-:Dz
 
I think Lake Tetzcoco should be a wonder or special pre-placed resource allowing a set of wonders on its own.
 
Why the Aztecs should have their very script as a wonder (culture and research off the charts?) or maybe all Mesoamerican civs, vying to forestall one another:

Aztec renaissance: New research sheds fresh light on intellectual achievements of long-vanished empire

Exactly 500 years after they were destroyed by the Spanish conquistadores, the long-lost intellectual foundations of Aztec civilisation are being rediscovered by a British anthropologist.

Excerpt:

The new discoveries about its sophistication now mean that historians will need to completely reassess the nature and scale of the downplayed wider literary, cultural and intellectual achievements of the Aztecs.

They demonstrate quite clearly that 16th century accounts, claiming that the Aztecs had sophisticated books of poetry, history, law and rhetoric – accounts mostly ignored for the past five centuries – were actually true.

Aztec literary achievements appear to have been the New World's equivalents of those of ancient Egypt, India, Greece and Rome, says Professor Whittaker.

"It's mainly their large-scale destruction that has led to them being erased from the world's memory," he said.


(link to long article with pictures and further links, no paywall)​
 
“History doesn’t repeat itself but it often rhymes.” - Mark Twain

The story's told
With facts and lies
I had a name
But never mind

There's truth that lives
And truth that dies
I don't know which
So never mind

Your victory
Was so complete
That some among you
Thought to keep

A record of
Our little lives
The clothes we wore
Our spoons our knives

The games of luck
Our soldiers played
The stones we cut
The songs we made

 
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