An American Lesson From The Captured British

[Stacmon]

For those of you that have been following the recent capture of British sailors and marines (as well as their return back to Britain), I hope you recognize the parallel that can be drawn between their ordeal and what goes on through the CIA's rendition program and detention facilities like Guantanamo Bay.

To me, it's absolutely laughable that people were so concerned and disgusted about the two week imprisonment of a handful of military personnel when people spend 2, 3, 4, 5 or more years in Guantanamo or similar locations without charge. These people have been called "the worst of the worst" and it has been asserted that they were "picked up off the battlefield." Despite these claims, dozens of people have been periodically released with no compensation or even a simple apology.

The allegations made against the Iranians are definitely troubling. Blindfolding, solitary confinement and deceptive information are all worthy of condemnation. Despite those things however, these people were held for a much shorter time and were treated in a far more humane manner than the hundreds detained by the current US administration.

The question I want to pose is... do you honestly believe that a foreign Arab, Middle Easterner or Muslim's life is less valuable or less worthy of protection than a Westerner's/American's? Does a person suddenly become "worth more" when they obtain American citizenship?

How can the United States show moral leadership when it adopts policies like this? Detaining people indefinitely without charge, allowing coerced testimony (ie: information gained through torture), hearsay and denying detainees the right to confront the evidence (or lack thereof) against them are all huge steps backward for the USA.

Do two wrongs make a right?

 

[Xanikk999]

For those of you that have been following the recent capture of British sailors and marines (as well as their return back to Britain), I hope you recognize the parallel that can be drawn between their ordeal and what goes on through the CIA's rendition program and detention facilities like Guantanamo Bay.?

Not many educated about Guantanamo Bay actually support it.

To me, it's absolutely laughable that people were so concerned and disgusted about the two week imprisonment of a handful of military personnel when people spend 2, 3, 4, 5 or more years in Guantanamo or similar locations without charge. These people have been called "the worst of the worst" and it has been asserted that they were "picked up off the battlefield." Despite these claims, dozens of people have been periodically released with no compensation or even a simple apology.

Well iran had no business in apprehending soldiers that WERENT in its territory. And as for gauntanamo i beileve thats wrong also, but still it has at least some legitimacy for many of its inmates.

The allegations made against the Iranians are definitely troubling. Blindfolding, solitary confinement and deceptive information are all worthy of condemnation. Despite those things however, these people were held for a much shorter time and were treated in a far more humane manner than the hundreds detained by the current US administration.

Well if all you beileve is the propaganda stories and exceptions is the norm of how americans treat detainees (abu ghraib is not the norm, im sure iran has done bad things too), then you need to take a breath of reality.

The question I want to pose is... do you honestly believe that a foreign Arab, Middle Easterner or Muslim's life is less valuable or less worthy of protection than a Westerner's/American's? Does a person suddenly become "worth more" when they obtain American citizenship?

This shows how naive and susceptable to propaganda you are if you HONESTLY have to ask this.

How can the United States show moral leadership when it adopts policies like this? Detaining people indefinitely without charge, allowing coerced testimony (ie: information gained through torture), hearsay and denying detainees the right to confront the evidence (or lack thereof) against them are all huge steps backward for the USA.

The united states is not showing moral leadership right now IMO.

Do two wrongs make a right?

Almost never.

 

[Urederra]

Although I don't agree with what it is happening at Guantanamo, I think the two situations are not comparable.

For one, Iran hasn't been attacked by England causing thousands of deaths.
For other, The english prisoners were soldiers, the people at guantanamo are, arguably, terrorists. (or at least, some of them are. That is why I think to keep everybody in jail without trial is so wrong)

 

[kulade]

None of this needs to happen again and the lack of care for prisoners in Gitmo undoubtedly gives America's adversaries the right to deal with prisoners as they wish.

We need to operate our POW as we want to to operate their's.

 

[Brighteye]

Do two wrongs make a right?

I agree with you that the detainments at Guantanamo Bay are wrong.
However, I tend to object to the use of the old phrase 'two wrongs don't make a right' and its derivatives. The same action is not always a wrong in every situation, or our whole system of justice would be flawed.

Thus when a child at school hit me, I'd hit him. Hard. And if some mindless woman (as it tended to be) came and told us off with that phrase, I could happily agree, but at the same time maintain that I was right to hit him, because hitting him was not wrong.
The phrase never addresses the actual issue: it assumes that the action is a wrong, and then reaches the obvious conclusion, when we should actually be discussing whether it really is wrong.

 

[Nylan]

You have not put a fair answer on the poll, nor a radioactive monkey

Frankly I'm sick of the "Something bad happened somewhere else and the US doesn't like it, so let's twist logic horribly to make it seem like the US is doing the same thing!" It's bandwagon talk.

How much do you claim to know about the CIA, when it's the single most secretive organization in the government (except perhaps for some other organization we don't even know exists...). Perhaps your claims about G Bay are true. Perhaps not. Until I see some more accurate information and less bias, I don't have an opinion here.

 

[Irish Caesar]

You're right. We should stop taking prisoners.

 

[Phlegmak]

I refuse to vote in the poll. It's too restrictive.

 

[Gilder]

We're Americans. We're not supposed to worry about moral consquences.

 

[Stacmon]

Not many educated about Guantanamo Bay actually support it.

And what proportion of the US population do you consider "educated?" I'm not suggesting that all Americans think the same way regarding the issue, and I'm hoping that a strong enough majority will be against the policy to affect legislative change sometime in the future.

Also if the Democrats get elected, or at least a respectable Republican, they'll hopefully take the country in a different direction.

Well iran had no business in apprehending soldiers that WERENT in its territory. And as for gauntanamo i beileve thats wrong also, but still it has at least some legitimacy for many of its inmates.

I find this laughable! Almost every Guantanamo detainee has been taken from territory outside of the United States. Many of them are non-combatants, and some of these people were even picked up in European countries!

Let's not forget the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen that was detained on a stop over in the US and deported to Syria, not to Canada. The US authorities were completely aware that Arar could face torture in Syria, and despite his Canadian citizenship, they decided to deport him there, where he underwent degrading and disgusting treatment. The Canadian government has formally apologized to him and a commission was carried out to ensure that justice was carried out.

In the end, a settlement was reached in which the Canadian government agreed to compensate Maher Arar with $10.5 million and an additional $1 million to cover his legal costs. At this point, it's unimaginable that the US would be willing to do the same. Hopefully that will change.

Well if all you beileve is the propaganda stories and exceptions is the norm of how americans treat detainees (abu ghraib is not the norm, im sure iran has done bad things too), then you need to take a breath of reality.

This shows how naive and susceptable to propaganda you are if you HONESTLY have to ask this.

Propaganda stories and exceptions? How many genuine incidents are you aware of? Keeping your head in the sand won't stop the same thing from occurring in the future, only speaking out against it will, no matter who carries it out.

It has been proven that the US has secret prisons outside of the USA, despite George Bush's claim that they don't exist.

The united states is not showing moral leadership right now IMO.

That's exactly the problem. It has in the past, and is now making some of the most unbelievable foreign (and domestic) policy errors I could have imagined.

How can the US look an enemy straight in the eye and say that they can't torture, harm or arbitrarily detain people for what they call "reasons of national security" (ie: cracking down on dissidents or political opponents) when you are doing these things and justifying them for the same reason, "to protect the American People".

 

[candle86]

i agree with how we deal with those animals, i have a brother that serves in guantumo with the Marines its not as bad as the liberal media makes it. Those animals get an arrow pointing towards mecca, 3 hot meals a day, 1 hr exercise. Tell me how they are mistreated, they are treated the same way a us citizen is treated in out own prisons. A POW is not entitled to a treaty and is only released at the end of a war or with negotions for a POW exchange, you think we should try them and let them go back and fight, your very dumb.

 

[Stacmon]

Those of you that feel the poll choices are too restrictive, you have an opportunity to post with your comments.

A poll can't capture all possible responses, the purpose is to get a general feel on an issue. Also, it's not as though the poll choices regarding whether the policy should be changed are:

"Yes, the current policy is immoral, disgusting and a grave mistake."

or "No, we don't care about how we treat these "Moslems" "

I started this thread to get a genuine discussion going.

I'd like to see how you guys respond to the Canadian government conducting a real investigation and awarding Maher Arar a total of $11.5 million, despite playing a much more minor role in his ordeal.

The American government (to the best of my knowledge) has not compensated a single person that they've arbitrarily detained and subsequently released. If there's no compensation, how can there be accountability?

Even if there is even a single person that has been wrongfully detained for say, 5 years, in Guantanamo Bay (and later released with no charge), don't you guys agree that they deserve to be compensated?

 

[Xanikk999]

And what proportion of the US population do you consider "educated?" I'm not suggesting that all Americans think the same way regarding the issue, and I'm hoping that a strong enough majority will be against the policy to affect legislative change sometime in the future.

Well many may be educated, but they dont have a rats ass understanding of the world or its affairs, so they may support dumb things like the war in iraq and hopelessly chasing after terrorists with the U.S's treasury.

Also if the Democrats get elected, or at least a respectable Republican, they'll hopefully take the country in a different direction.

Doubtful no matter what side gets elected unfortunately. Domestic issues dont seem to be as important to politicians as chasing after terrorists are. The democrats arent going to make this nation any less xenophobic even if they are elected. Even the democrats wasted thier time on useless wars when clinton was in power.

I find this laughable! Almost every Guantanamo detainee has been taken from territory outside of the United States. Many of them are non-combatants, and some of these people were even picked up in European countries

Many of them are innocent, thats why i dont support guantanmo, but its naive to think that almost everyone of them is innocent.

Let's not forget the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen that was detained on a stop over in the US and deported to Syria, not to Canada. The US authorities were completely aware that Arar could face torture in Syria, and despite his Canadian citizenship, they decided to deport him there, where he underwent degrading and disgusting treatment. The Canadian government has formally apologized to him and a commission was carried out to ensure that justice was carried out.

I agree, but appealing to one case and trying to say thats the norm is fallacious.

In the end, a settlement was reached in which the Canadian government agreed to compensate Maher Arar with $10.5 million and an additional $1 million to cover his legal costs. At this point, it's unimaginable that the US would be willing to do the same. Hopefully that will change.

Well i cant say if canada was following our policies that they would do the same for an american citizen.

Propaganda stories and exceptions? How many genuine incidents are you aware of? Keeping your head in the sand won't stop the same thing from occurring in the future, only speaking out against it will, no matter who carries it out.

There really arent that many incidents of it. They make the news because they are rare. If it was common for soldiers to be killing civilians and mistreating prisoners of war, it wouldnt make the news obviously.

It has been proven that the US has secret prisons outside of the USA, despite George Bush's claim that they don't exist.

Im not saying your wrong on this, i just dont see why the E.U doesnt do anything about it when they are placed in european countries.

 

[candle86]

Well many may be educated, but they dont have a rats ass understanding of the world or its affairs, so they may support dumb things like the war in iraq and hopelessly chasing after terrorists with the U.S's treasury.

Actully i could care less about the world, the only 2 things i care about is god and the US, the world can bend over and kiss it for all i care

Doubtful no matter what side gets elected unfortunately. Domestic issues dont seem to be as important to politicians as chasing after terrorists are. The democrats arent going to make this nation any less xenophobic even if they are elected. Even the democrats wasted thier time on useless wars when clinton was in power.

or maybe its not our governments job to provide jobs, medical, and income to us. Read our consition, and our government type. We are speciflly a Capitilist rebuplic. We are not a democracy, that is a misconception. Our governments job is to protect our boarders, provide basic services, roads, mail, ect. And to tax to support the government, they are not responsilble for making your life easier.

 

[Stacmon]

i agree with how we deal with those animals, i have a brother that serves in guantumo with the Marines its not as bad as the liberal media makes it. Those animals get an arrow pointing towards mecca, 3 hot meals a day, 1 hr exercise. Tell me how they are mistreated, they are treated the same way a us citizen is treated in out own prisons. A POW is not entitled to a treaty and is only released at the end of a war or with negotions for a POW exchange, you think we should try them and let them go back and fight, your very dumb.

This is an incredibly ignorant statement.

You ask if you should be "releasing these people so that they can go back and fight us." What you don't seem to understand is that the US government has already released many prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and other locations after being unable to prove their guilt on a single charge. The problem however is that these people were given no apology, compensation and had to spend years of their life in prison.

You talk about them being prisoners of war, but could you tell me how a civilian picked up somewhere in the world, completely unarmed and engaged in no illegal activity can be called a "prisoner of war?"

I'm not suggesting that every person in Guantanamo Bay is completely innocent or saintly. The point however is that if even a small minority isn't guilty and no steps are taken to compensate those that are wrongfully detained, then the system is ripe for abuse and cries out for reform.

 

[candle86]

This is an incredibly ignorant statement.

You ask if you should be "releasing these people so that they can go back and fight us." What you don't seem to understand is that the US government has already released many prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and other locations after being unable to prove their guilt on a single charge. The problem however is that these people were given no apology, compensation and had to spend years of their life in prison.

You talk about them being prisoners of war, but could you tell me how a civilian picked up somewhere in the world, completely unarmed and engaged in no illegal activity can be called a "prisoner of war?"

I'm not suggesting that every person in Guantanamo Bay is completely innocent or saintly. The point however is that if even a small minority isn't guilty and no steps are taken to compensate those that are wrongfully detained, then the system is ripe for abuse and cries out for reform.

i disagree, 1% maybe are innocent, maybe 1%, and id bet money that most that have gone free because they couldnt prove the charges, were guilty but there buddies hid the information. Most of the ppl in Cuba right now at Guantnamo are from the Middle east, and are terrorist cell leaders, right hand men, memebers or have spoken in such a way publiclly to be seen as a terrorist. You can go to jail for saying your going to kill the president, and some of these ppl are in jail for saying alot worse than that, so no i disagree with you.

 

[Shadylookin]

i agree with how we deal with those animals, i have a brother that serves in guantumo with the Marines its not as bad as the liberal media makes it. Those animals get an arrow pointing towards mecca, 3 hot meals a day, 1 hr exercise. Tell me how they are mistreated, they are treated the same way a us citizen is treated in out own prisons. A POW is not entitled to a treaty and is only released at the end of a war or with negotions for a POW exchange, you think we should try them and let them go back and fight, your very dumb.

the fact they have been denied the right to a swift and speedy trial by jury. If they are in fact actively involved in trying to kill Americans then it shouldn't be that hard to prove. If they are in fact POWs then they should have been released once the countries governments were overthrown.

 

[candle86]

the fact they have been denied the right to a swift and speedy trial by jury. If they are in fact actively involved in trying to kill Americans then it shouldn't be that hard to prove. If they are in fact POWs then they should have been released once the countries governments were overthrown.

except where not fighting countiers where fighting terrorist cells, disorganized cells i might add, so releasing them would be a bad idea, untill we stop there entire cell and eradicate it they remain a POW in the war on terror. We are treating them to humane, what we should do is everyone arrested as a terrorist should recive a short trial followed by a nosse, thats justice

 

[Stacmon]

Many of them are innocent, thats why i dont support guantanmo, but its naive to think that almost everyone of them is innocent.

I would never go as far as to say that all of those people are innocent. I would completely disagree with anyone making that argument.

But whether innocent or not, especially when that's an unknown fact, torture, arbitrary detention and robbing a person of their rights/dignity is uncalled for.

We don't seem to be in disagreement regarding Guantanamo Bay, so there's no reason to argue about that.

It was also mentioned earlier that these incidents are uncommon. Just because you don't see them often in the mainstream press, doesn't mean that they haven't been occurring (or that they go unreported). I don't think the majority of Americans watch BBC News (British), the CBC (Canadian), Euronews or the variety of smaller or independent news providers.

 

[Xanikk999]

It was also mentioned earlier that these incidents are uncommon. Just because you don't see them often in the mainstream press, doesn't mean that they haven't been occurring (or that they go unreported). I don't think the majority of Americans watch BBC News (British), the CBC (Canadian), Euronews or the variety of smaller or independent news providers.

How common? Everytime a U.S soldier does something immoral like kill a civilian ON PURPOSE, or rape someone, they get courtmarshalled and have a trial.

I just dont see how this could be common. If BBC says its common, well common sense dictates that i would say its extremely biased and probably outright wrong.

After all the soldiers who actually served would know, and i know a few so maybe il ask them about these "mass atrocioties" that are commonly occuring.