An Extremely Serious Concern

[Sarevok]

I admit it, ive been living under a rock for a while. I havent done any serious posting here for a year, so I might not have my facts completely straight.

However...

I have been hearing that in CIV4, they will be seriously changing the Scenario Creation tools, and that it will be a far more complex system than before. I actually heard that people will have to be computer experts to even understand the editor.

To me, as a veteran scenario creator with many scenarios on my "belt", this is both a great insult and a great concern to me. I am no computer genius. I couldnt tell you anything about computers more than how to do generally run it. If they are planning to make it so complex that people like me cannot create, I am willing to bet that about 90% of the creators today will not be able to create either.

This would kill the scenario creation business, which has always been a great part of the civ community. The creation of such an editor that cannot be understood without computer training would cost the civ community some of its best creators, including me.

Therefore, I am posting this both as a protest, and to get people aware of this. Thank you.

- Sarevok

 

[Lockesdonkey]

I've not created scens before, but I understand your point, and share your concern. This promises to be a big problem.

 

[Civrules]

There are Four Levels that a player can edit what they want, ranging from the simplest World builder (which can be opened at any time), to the most complex AI SDK.

Now, for the AI SDK you really need to be a computer programmer to understand what you are doing, and that is what you've been hearing I assume.
However, I am sure that the first two levels (world builder and XML editing) anyone can do pretty much from what I've been hearing.


But I guess it depends on what level you are interested to mod Civ IV?

 

[warpstorm]

And who knows, you might just learn to do it at the hardest level (AI SDK) with a bit of effort.

 

[Urederra]

I am very excited with those four levels of modding. Personally, I have not created any map, I prefer random maps because I love to explore and when you create your own maps the fun about exploring is lost. But, As far as I have read on Civ IV that would be easy to make.

I have changed the values of some variables in SMAC, such as food or energy production, civics, etc.., That was very easy to do, You don't have to be a computer expert to do that. Apparently, Civ IV will allow you to change all those variables quite easily. The difficult part is to keep the game balanced.

The other two levels of modding seem more difficult to acomplish, but more interesting as well. I wanted to start learning some phyton so I can change more things in the game. No rush at all The game will be released next christmas (hopefully) and I wanted to play as it is for some time before start meddling with the phyton code. I know some Perl already, so Python shouldn't be so difficult for me.

I do not know what SKD is but apparently you have to know some C++ to deal with it. I wonder If you can make a complete different type of game, like something similar to Galactic Civilizations simply by changing code at these two hard levels. That would be extremely exciting. Or, for example, a jungle based type of 4X game, with different species of animals instead of civilizations. Expert modders will be able to do wonders changing code.

So, in summary, my impression is that you don't have to learn any computer language to know how to edit/build a map or change food or hammer production, or even change your civics. But if you want to learn phyton you will be able to do wonders with the game.

 

[Civrules]

I'm quoting from what we already know about SDK:

They can even create and write their own game types to pretty much building their own game, loosely based on Civilization. Literally everything can be changed.

 

[Commander Bello]

I do share Sarevok's concerns to a certain degree, but less because of the required programming skills but because of the needed graphics art.
As Civrules already pointed out, the first two of the four "modding levels" will be easy to be handled.
Even the third one, the "Python level" shouldn't be THAT much of a problem, although you won't be able to do it immediately. Especially not, if you never did any programing before.

But introducing new art - that seems to become a problem.
I assume it will become much harder to do those new graphics, as now everything has to be 3D. People say that units in Civ3 already were done in 3D and then "downgraded" to 2D. This is something, I just have to believe.
But now, even buildings have to be 3D. So, you don't have to create a front and a side, you have to create the whole thing.
Then, due to the zooming, it really has to fit to the rest - things like ratios and perspective come to mind. As you may zoom in and out and rotate and do all other kinds of unneeded games with the graphics engine, I would assume that even a light distortion would just spoil the appearance of the new graphics.
This seems to be much more effort.

Additionally, I have no idea with which programs this has to be done. Will the graphics formats be the ones used by free- or shareware programs? Or do the graphics heroes now have to buy cost-intensive programs to be able to include their new stuff in the game program?

So, we should not expect graphics related mods in 2006. At least they most probably will only be of (relatively) poor quality.

 

[microbe]

When I first heard the python thing, I asked a question about security, since the modpack would contain not only data but also code.

The concern was moderate at that point, since python code is (mostly) source based. You could still look at the source code and check if it does evil things such as stealing credit card number from your local cache.

Now there is an SDK. While it's quite powerful, it also opens a whole can of worms as far as security is concerned. I would definitely not want to dowload DLLs from Internet some random guy wrote. We should *at least* (and it's far less than enough) request the source code is provided.

 

[vbraun]

The concern was moderate at that point, since python code is (mostly) source based. You could still look at the source code and check if it does evil things such as stealing credit card number from your local cache.

Now there is an SDK. While it's quite powerful, it also opens a whole can of worms as far as security is concerned. I would definitely not want to dowload DLLs from Internet some random guy wrote. We should *at least* (and it's far less than enough) request the source code is provided.

All I could say to that is: "OMG". I can understand that being a possibility but, why? There are so much more easier ways to steal your credit card number. Plus this kind of thing has been done with first-person shooters, and have you heard any kind of complaints of someone stealing there credit card number through a game?

Most likely anything that is posted on CFC will not have any of that stuff. Go download a mod, it won't have any spyware or viruses in it.

Back on Topic:

So you have a choice:
1. Have pretty much of it all hard-coded, where anyone could make a scenario or,
2. Have absolutly nothing hard-coded, where it actually take some knowledge to make something.

I personally would pick option 2, becasue people come up with great ideas in the C&C forums, but 90% of that can't be done becasue most of the game is hard-coded. Think of it like this:
Civ3: Your in jail, you can do only some stuff, but you don't really have to work for anything.
Civ4: Your not in jail, you can do anything you want, but you have to work in a job in order to eat, have a house, and what not.

I'm sorry, I much rather not be in jail, even if that means I have to work to stay alive.

 

[Willem]

I have been hearing that in CIV4, they will be seriously changing the Scenario Creation tools, and that it will be a far more complex system than before. I actually heard that people will have to be computer experts to even understand the editor.

I think you're misunderstanding. From what I gather there will be areas, like modification of the AI, that will require some programing skills. But most of the changes possible will be fairly easy to do. At least that's the impression I get from the interviews I've read so far

 

[Sarevok]

Ok. Well, I guess as long as I can create the hard scenario with all its good stuff, that will be fine. Ill let someone else deal with AI.

 

[Himalia]

Well theres no point in it being to complicated as that will count against them if it frustrates to many people.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

What I think we will see is more specialization by the community. You already saw some of that in Civ3 with some modders doing nothing but making units for other modders to use. That works both ways. Someone makes a cool unit, it inspires someone to make a mod. Someone makes a cool mod with substandard units, it inspires someone to make better units.

With Civ4, the same thing will happen in spades. You'll see people like me, that really have very little interest in Civ3 style modding, get hooked into SDK tweaking (because I can, and it's more interesting to me). The more people do things like that, the better they get at it. And it gets easier the more you do it, making specialization even more rewarding.

If that sounds like it treads close to economic theories, well that's what it models.

So probably some of the very best mods will be made up of pieces scavenged from earlier mods, built by some one or two people with a big vision, and then various helps from others to tie it altogether.

Note that such a thing is inherently more secure as far as downloaded DLLs or Python script. You've got a group of people that care about their reputation, that have already been testing the thing. If some idiot tries something malicious, the other people in the group will probably find it.

OTOH, a mod put out by a single person will find it harder to get accepted. Not only is there a worry about malicious code, the mod simply will not be as good. Maybe at first, a single person can put the best stuff out there. But give it six months, and the group of specialists will beat him every time. We might see some kind of clearing house of people qualified to review things that stamp it as ok, then post it in an "approved" area.

No doubt something else relevant will also happen along the lines above, but different. You can't predict exactly how it will all work, anymore than you could have predicted the exact course of Civ3 mod development. But give enough interested people the right tools, and they will use them to do something.

 

[GoodGame]

I'm still for it, since the editor's never really get you close enough to doing exactly what you want to do. And it's not long there's a shortage of programmers who don't like making editing tools in the hopes that someone makes a scenario for them to play.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

It doesn't sound to me as if anything what you could do in Civ3 would require more than the Worldbuilder and the xml editing (face it, Civ3 with txt files ...).
No clue about Python, but that sounds like the return of the Civ2 events to me; should be basic enough to learn fast even without preknowledge of a language.
The SDK...I dont even know what the name is supposed to mean.

Graphics; well, for Civ3 you needed a flc program - that was a huge step at that time as well.

But anyway, the time consume for a good mod/ scenario is 10% concept, 10% modding, and 80% testing and bug-squeezing anyway. Even if the modding takes me twice as long in the beginning - it won't matter much in the end.

 

[warpstorm]

SDK = Software Development Kit

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Thanks warp, I'd seen that - my problem is that this doesn't tell me anything .

In my profession, a 'kit' is something you obtain for huge sums of cash to allow experiments by lesser qualified employees (like medicine-technical assistants) with the same results as e.g. a PhD could with chemicals for some cents. A pretty negative term.

 

[warpstorm]

It is usually a set of files that you will need for your compiler to give it the 'hooks' into the Civ4 code they are allowing you to modify.

 

[Own]

You can mod the game to an extent where a computer genious is needed, but you can also mod it like civ3.

 

[vbraun]

It doesn't sound to me as if anything what you could do in Civ3 would require more than the Worldbuilder and the xml editing (face it, Civ3 with txt files ...).
No clue about Python, but that sounds like the return of the Civ2 events to me; should be basic enough to learn fast even without preknowledge of a language.
The SDK...I dont even know what the name is supposed to mean.

I don't know but how about, canals, barbarians that change throughout the ages, a more accurate naval/air battles, more then 5 culture groups, more then 31 civs, complete control on how every aspect of the game works, roads cause maintance, railroads no longer give infinite movment, a wonder gives 25% tax income vs 50%, more religons, complete contorl over religon system, make the game into a RPG, smarter AI, AI can use everything you added the way you intended (land transports anyone?), and this list could go on for ever.

As I said above Civ3 is like a Jail, Civ4 is like a paradise where absolutly anything is possible.

BTW, I'm hoping someone make a GUI to modify the XML files, making it more like the current Civ3 editor. That would friggen awesome!