Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Chandrasekhar]

Keep in mind that this guy is playing .14 here. The temptation to play .15 like all the rest of us must be crushing.

That said, it seems that the Lanun weren't quite played to their greatest strengths, but the elves had a decent amount of forests. I hope you consider that in your writeup.

 

[Sureshot]

A fish out of water battling a wolf is what that comparison is showing me.

With Lanun I'm not happy unless I have atleast 2 sea resources per city, and I've got 4+ sea resources before in one city. And I only work ocean squares and get conquest and slavery. And lakes give even more food. I'd say the Lanun results are extremely inaccurate. I manage to out tech the AI's on deity with them, these results paint them as vanilla civs lol

all i can guess is Unser has no idea how to play them or is purposely skewing things.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I wouldn't go so far as that. I'd guess that his objective is to show how the Lanun would do when their player isn't willing to regenerate map/when the player is playing in multi. The Lanun's ideal conditions are a bit rarer than the Ljosalfar's, and it seems that he's making an effort to simulate that.

 

[eerr]

1.5b corrects a serious bug where automated workers only place improvements according to what the final improvement placement will be
-this could be a serious problem

 

[Sureshot]

i definately don't agree, its always easy to beeline for the coast and find atleast two sea resources, much easier than finding forests and floodplains (try being elves in jungles or deserts or tundra or thin lands stripes - its obvious he went to the trouble of finding 'good' city sites, however 'good' means good for elves and ignoring others best terrains)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Then look at it this way: he used the Lanun as a control Civ, because their land attributes are similar to a vanilla Civ with decent traits. His results aren't meant to simulate the Lanun in anything like ideal conditions.

 

[Sureshot]

it should read "Control Civ" everywhere it says Lanun then, or he should have used, i dunno, the Malakim, who have no yield advantage with which to ignore (and have the two best vanilla traits for expansion and yields, financial and creative).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

La-nun, La-nun, say it with me, La-nun... they are not from the moon.

This is why I say I am terrible at remembering the names of Civs and Cvi Leaders. I remember 'em by their dippy screen portraits.

Anyway, I did some editing.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I had been looking forward to reading this. I cant wait to see your analysis.

Thanks Kael. It's a personal thrill just to contribute to the projectin some way, shape, or manner.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Probably because they have the characteristics that may or may not alter the play of the early game.

Clan - Barb
Lanun - +1 Food & a Financial Leader
Khazad - Dwarven Vaults
Ljosalfar - Elves... and trees

Bingo.

These Civs were often cited in the ongoing debates as solid economic performers.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

How about Hippus and their raiders?

I never heard them cited as a strong economic power nor a particularly fast-starter.

I will have to check again where the Hippus Raider is gained on the tech tree. But considering that only the Ljosalfar managed to build a unit of greater than STR = 2, I doubt Hippus could build a Raider unit before Year 200, Fractal Map, Emperor, Epic.

But maybe I'll play them as my first 0.15 game.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Thank you. I was beginning to think that they had something to do with the lunar seas, what with all this Lunan stuff. A quick check of the Civlopedia proved differently.

Good luck on those writeups, Unser. You're probably far enough into it now that just restarting it all on .15 would be impractical, but hopefully that means that you don't have to forgo playing .15 for too much longer. Courage!

Actually, I am unaware of any structureal changes in 0.15 that would make these particular studies run any differently. But then again, it's been awhile since I read te 0.15 change list.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

A test with Lanun that has only 1 sea resource and 7 sea tiles used?

i must say your strategy for Lanun seems unbelievably lacking. By turn 200 if thats the situation i had id consider it a grand failure and learn from it lol

You'll soon have access to the start file (well, the turn 21 save file I screwed up saving turn 001. ) and you can prove me wrong.

I do wonder, however, how you will work those sea tiles before learning Fishing? Or how you will build anything when your realm is producing a total of 4-5 Hammers / Turn. But like I said, as soon as I learn how to upload the files, you can shatter all these specious claims I am making.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

wheres the kurioates?
i really wanted a comparison of that sprawling trait

If I'd heard more interest in them in the other threads, I'd been willing to include them in the test. Perhaps I'll eventually just hit 'em all.

 

[Jono]

You'll soon have access to the start file (well, the turn 21 save file I screwed up saving turn 001. ) and you can prove me wrong.

I do wonder, however, how you will work those sea tiles before learning Fishing? Or how you will build anything when your realm is producing a total of 4-5 Hammers / Turn. But like I said, as soon as I learn how to upload the files, you can shatter all these specious claims I am making.

There's usually an initial auto save.

 

[Sureshot]

You'll soon have access to the start file (well, the turn 21 save file I screwed up saving turn 001. ) and you can prove me wrong.

I do wonder, however, how you will work those sea tiles before learning Fishing? Or how you will build anything when your realm is producing a total of 4-5 Hammers / Turn. But like I said, as soon as I learn how to upload the files, you can shatter all these specious claims I am making.

go straight for fishing, doesnt take that long, then go for conquest, then OO and you're set and out producing any one unitwise, rushwise, and techwise

 

[Lord Vermillion]

go straight for fishing, doesnt take that long, then go for conquest, then OO and you're set and out producing any one unitwise, rushwise, and techwise

Debateable.

 

[Jasper7]

I'm thinking this experiment didn't produce much reliable data for two reasons:

1) Not patched to 015b
2) A different map was used for each civ

The second one is most important, though. Generate a map with a start location that is as equal as possible in benefit for all of the civs, then modify the map and replace the civs as you go.

The end result will be more accurate data because each civ was played under exactly the same map conditions.

 

[Sureshot]

with raging barbs and lots of space (so you dont get the ljo scenario unser set up where they luck out and have sheltered lands because of a neighbour), they are second only to khazad in what they can do (khazads unpillageable mines rock)

 

[Sureshot]

i think the unreliability comes from playstyles, knowledge of civs and how to optimally play them, and the map type and what was perceived as 'optimal', and also the game settings (Epic games have more focus on production, quick games commerce becomes much more important because you can race up the tech tree and then worry about production later).