Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Keep in mind that this guy is playing .14 here. The temptation to play .15 like all the rest of us must be crushing.

That said, it seems that the Lanun weren't quite played to their greatest strengths, but the elves had a decent amount of forests. I hope you consider that in your writeup.

I have not yet posted the turn by turn game notes. You all can comb through them to get a sense of the pacing. Personally, if I am playing the Lanun I am still not going to build nothing but coastal cities an just cede rich interior lands to whomever started near me. The first three cities were placed to solidify my borders and to exploit damn good city sites.

Afterwards I built coastal cities ... and I worked as many sea tiles as I had population, specifically because the Common Wisdom here assumes this is the best way to grow the Lanun economy. The purpose here was to let the Lanus work their sea tiles as soon and as much as they could. But finger-snapping doesn't cut it. The techs must be learned and reasources harvested first. Sea tiles yeild zero . Hammers are not an optional resource, even for a Seafaring nation.

The operative concept is, hey worked the sea as much as they could. Go to their aggregate hammer production. Subtract out the cost of building units, subtract out the cost of settlers and Workers. Estimate how much would be left had they worked sea tiles all game long instead..

Like I said, some of this will become clearer once I learnhow to attach files and stuff.

 

[Sureshot]

well considering they were out produced and everything else by the others you obviously didnt play them anywhere near optimality. they can easily out do AIs with no trouble.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

A fish out of water battling a wolf is what that comparison is showing me.

With Lanun I'm not happy unless I have atleast 2 sea resources per city, and I've got 4+ sea resources before in one city. And I only work ocean squares and get conquest and slavery. And lakes give even more food. I'd say the Lanun results are extremely inaccurate. I manage to out tech the AI's on deity with them, these results paint them as vanilla civs lol

all i can guess is Unser has no idea how to play them or is purposely skewing things.

Live with the data for eight days like I have, and re-visit this snap decision. :shrug:

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

1.5b corrects a serious bug where automated workers only place improvements according to what the final improvement placement will be
-this could be a serious problem

What's an automated worker? Never heard of 'em.

This is NOT an issue with this test, that much is certain.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

it should read "Control Civ" everywhere it says Lanun then, or he should have used, i dunno, the Malakim, who have no yield advantage with which to ignore (and have the two best vanilla traits for expansion and yields, financial and creative).

You know the game conditions. Fractal Map, 0.14, Epic, Emperor. Roll up an ideal map for the Lanun and blow me out of the water.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

There's usually an initial auto save.

Yeah, but you better not start a new game before you re-name it. And I did.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

go straight for fishing, doesnt take that long, then go for conquest, then OO and you're set and out producing any one unitwise, rushwise, and techwise

This particular strategem was in my forebrain all game long. It was not achieveable in the 200 turn timeframe. Warfare is actually an expensive tech in the early game. It don't come into use the turn after you start researching it. And it does not help you build anything but units.

But like I said, the debate can now shift from the semantic to the tangible. I invite you to run a game under the same conditions and do so much better as to invalidate these tests. Be sure you understand it's not enough to say I missed by 10%, or even 20%. You have to blow me out of the water, because the Ljosalfar sure as hell blew everyone else out of the water in this study.

Over 4,000 Hammers. Nearly twice the #2 hammer producer, Lanun.

Say, just how did the Lanus manage to out-Hammer the Khazad withtheir 13 count em 13 Flood Plains and surrounding mountains. Boy, the Lanun were so badly run, they couldn't do anything right!

 

[Jono]

Yeah, but you better not start a new game before you re-name it. And I did.

That's weird, when I play it usually stays with me while I have 4 more autosaves updated every 4 turns...

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'm thinking this experiment didn't produce much reliable data for two reasons:

1) Not patched to 015b
2) A different map was used for each civ

The second one is most important, though. Generate a map with a start location that is as equal as possible in benefit for all of the civs, then modify the map and replace the civs as you go.

The end result will be more accurate data because each civ was played under exactly the same map conditions.

0.15 has no impacton the early gameunder study.

Your other points were addressed in the introduction. They are valid points, but the criticism you offer is already understood.

All the data has not been pubished. The turn notes will illustrate where when and in what manner the civ developments differeed.

In general I agree the CLan did a bit worse thanthey'd do on an "average" map. OTOH the Khazad had an amazing start map, so theycan't expext 13 FP and 2 Gold mines to start every game. The otehr two realms started on nice maps, but they were "special" only in they had a river with at least a couple FP.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

i think the unreliability comes from playstyles, knowledge of civs and how to optimally play them, and the map type and what was perceived as 'optimal', and also the game settings (Epic games have more focus on production, quick games commerce becomes much more important because you can race up the tech tree and then worry about production later).

And yet in this Epic game I focused on Commerce as the over-arching priority with hammer production being an ad hoc consideration.

You are right, different factors apply under different game conditions. The purpose here, however, was to measure a Civ's ability to grow within its own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[dreiche2]

well, this time I don't have the time to keep up with the discussion.

So I just wanted to say, let's keep a low profile this time, I don't want to see no tears in the end

I'm also confident that Kael & co make the right decisions in the end... and if not, we'll whine until their ears smoke so they change it in the next patch

*taps himself on the shoulder for being such a wise guy and goes to bed...

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

well considering they were out produced and everything else by the others you obviously didnt play them anywhere near optimality. they can easily out do AIs with no trouble.

No, what is obvious that I have demonstrated a nearly 2:1 advantage in hammer production for the Ljosalfar.

Twice as many cottages built by the Ljosalfar than their nearest competitor. At least one of every other improvement built too .. the Clan wasn't able to build anything but Cottages.

At turn 200 the Ljosalfar had an army nearly twice the size, and definitely twice the STR as their nearest competitor.

TheElven nation totaled 35 population, a major, major boost over the 2nd place of 27 poplation. That was on the map with all the, you know, Flood Plains.

No nation was able to build a unit above STR 2. The Ljosalfar had already built three different types of units better than that. An Archer, a Hero, and 4Hunters. Everyone else, Warriors and Scouts and nary a unit-producing building built yet. (i.e. no one else had had time to build Archery Ranges, Hunting Lodges etc.

Small inconsistancies can be explained away by map variations or sub-perfect play. But a 2:1 differential cannot.

Imagine if I had selected a so-called "good" map for the Ljosalfar. Hell, I didn't even work the Flood Plain tiles until city four was built. I do believe you are on record as saying Flood Plain tiles are by far the best tiles for Cottages, even for the Ljosalfar? Well ... in point of fact you are wrong about that.

If you were right, the Khazad had the best possible map. And the Khazad, the Hammer-Meisters, were out-hammered nearly 2:1.

All that is needed is a few forests in the realm. Starting civs are small. 12 forest tiles are not needed for a city of size 3. Then after their 2nd invention the Ljosalfar can start spamming cottages in woods.

You seem to feel teh burden of proof is on me. You think you can just say all these two to one imbalances are just due to the maps. Well, sorry. A two to one imbalanced means the burden of proof is now firmly on you. Perhaps that burden was once mine, but I shouldered it, and delivered up the numbers.

It's now the Elf-defender's turn.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I need to stop replying to ongoing posts, so I can learn that file upload thing. I also need to catch my breath, as I know I am neglecting to mention things I definitely intended to mention.

Here's one extremely important bug I beieve I found. I hope someone else can confirm it, because I think I am going crazy.

When I played three of the games, Tier-1 techs cost 337 beakers, tier-2 cost 540, and tier-3 1080.

But when I played the (naturally) Ljosalfar, I discovered the costs to be 315, 504, 1008.

Is this intended? Does everyone / anyone else see this? (In 2.014) Did anyone catch this before? On top of everything else, why dothe Ljosalfar pay less/tech than everyone else?

If these costs are wrong, the Ljosalfar would probably learn one fewer tech, at least. And thier overall production would have to be supressed some, thanks to new techs arriving pregressively slightly later and later.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

well considering they were out produced and everything else by the others you obviously didnt play them anywhere near optimality. they can easily out do AIs with no trouble.

Every one of my four test games would have resulted in a human player victory with little drama, of that I am quite certain. The AI is not the issue here.

 

[Jono]

I need to stop replying to ongoing posts, so I can learn that file upload thing. I also need to catch my breath, as I know I am neglecting to mention things I definitely intended to mention.

Here's one extremely important bug I beieve I found. I hope someone else can confirm it, because I think I am going crazy.

When I played three of the games, Tier-1 techs cost 337 beakers, tier-2 cost 540, and tier-3 1080.

But when I played the (naturally) Ljosalfar, I discovered the costs to be 315, 504, 1008.

Is this intended? Does everyone / anyone else see this? (In 2.014) Did anyone catch this before? On top of everything else, why dothe Ljosalfar pay less/tech than everyone else?

If these costs are wrong, the Ljosalfar would probably learn one fewer tech, at least. And thier overall production would have to be supressed some, thanks to new techs arriving pregressively slightly later and later.

*cough*Overpowered*cough*

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

That's weird, when I play it usually stays with me while I have 4 more autosaves updated every 4 turns...

Yeah, but you have to understand I did not realize my omission until the next game was well underway. .. Maybe even the game after that.

 

[Jono]

Ah, yes multiple games usually cause problems with saves ^^

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

well, this time I don't have the time to keep up with the discussion.

So I just wanted to say, let's keep a low profile this time, I don't want to see no tears in the end

I'm also confident that Kael & co make the right decisions in the end... and if not, we'll whine until their ears smoke so they change it in the next patch

*taps himself on the shoulder for being such a wise guy and goes to bed...

Hee hee. Wisdom indeed.

Look, I think the game will probably be fun to play, even if the Ljosalfar are allowed to be the monsters they are now. I just would have to never, ever play the Ljosalfar. But killing endless waves of Elves is not entirely without appeal.

If this were a player vs player game, though, there would be only one term to describe the Ljosalfar: broken. Any player who run Ljosalfar beats any other player of equal skill, each game, every game.

And it is sort of disappointing to those players who like Elves, but don't want to play a Monarch game when the slider is set to Diety. Fortunately, I prefer to depopulate Elves from fantasy worlds.

 

[Sureshot]

you picked circumstances that make the elves seem like the best, and even got them ideal situations (raging barbs yet they didnt have to deal with them)

creating specific setups based on your own biases will only 'prove' your biases.

 

[Jono]

You really should lay off Sureshot, the Elves are overpowered, don't get me wrong I'm against balance, nothing is fair. But seriously, it doesn't change the fact that they are.