Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Unser Giftzwerg]

A fish out of water battling a wolf is what that comparison is showing me.

With Lanun I'm not happy unless I have atleast 2 sea resources per city, and I've got 4+ sea resources before in one city. And I only work ocean squares and get conquest and slavery. And lakes give even more food. I'd say the Lanun results are extremely inaccurate. I manage to out tech the AI's on deity with them, these results paint them as vanilla civs lol

all i can guess is Unser has no idea how to play them or is purposely skewing things.

This sort of resource-spew does not occur on Fractal maps. I've mentioned before that fact I play Fractal and you play Smartmap is probably a root cause for some of our different impressions on the game. Fractal does not place a speacil resource every third non-peak tile, as the Smartmap screenshot you posted seemed to feature. Nor did I sit around and regenrate maps over and over until I got a perfect starting map. I regenerated until I saw a river, at least some Flood Plains, and enough land I knew I wasn't alone on some 3-city island.

In the Lunan game there were two more Sea resources but they were two tiles away from the coast. That means a need for border expansion. And that means Obelisks, since Hannah has Raider to go along with her Financial.

Them pesky numbers, always ruining a good semantic construct.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'm not entirely convinced that the starting location for the elves was "ideal"...

It was pretty good, but does that warrant an almost 2:1 production difference? I would say that Unser might be wise to do a second test run, but I'm not sure anything less than a continent without forests will make the Ljosalfar's production close to that of the other Civs.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

you picked circumstances that make the elves seem like the best, and even got them ideal situations (raging barbs yet they didnt have to deal with them)

creating specific setups based on your own biases will only 'prove' your biases.

Please tell me how I set up a random map to ensure a civ would screen me from Raging Barbs. Oh please tell me how I knew where the AI civs were located under the Fog of War on turn 1.

So what about Raging Barbs? The civs that did have to deal with them never lost a single tile to pillage. Raging barbs means amore experienced army. Raging Barbs are a problem in vaniall Civ but not in FfH. The other test civs fought them with STR 1 and STR 2 units. Not 3 STR Archers, 3 STR Hunters, and 5 STR Heroes. Hell, I sent my Elves out LOOKING for Barb to fight.

And since you are now limited to direct insult, calling me a liar by insisting I intentionally skewed the data when I have told you I did not, I will simply tell you Good Day. You simply cannot face the fact that the Ljosalfar operate under serious design flaws.

 

[Sureshot]

Hannah would do better on an island, and being inland is death for Lanun.

and the whole thing about game settings are why these results show nothing of value except that if you play to the ljo ideals other civs will get screwed over. but thats a given

if you put Ljo on a small island with tundra and no forests, they suck. Lanun wouldn't, theyd do great.

if you play quick, commerce is better then production, and the measely 1 production bonus in conditional tiles (that can cost you a trade) means nothing, +1 food is much more valuable, since you'll up your city in a rush and get even more trade (each city size gives 3 trade without any improving).

claims that ljo are powerful based on your results is entirely misleading even purely economically based.

when it comes to war, these implications of yours seem blatantly incorrect.

 

[QES]

I blame sureshot for all crimes women commit against men. WHy shouldnt random blame follow? I dont see a need for "logic" to get involved in a nice round of blame game. J/k.

This is a good analysis, glad your doing it.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Heh, what do you like better, the analysis, or Sureshot's analysis of the analysis?

 

[QES]

Heh, what do you like better, the analysis, or Sureshot's analysis of the analysis?

I suppose i most prefer my analysis of her analysing the analysis.
-Qes

 

[QES]

Comon now folks, everyone be nice. Or if we cant be nice, at least be funny.
-Qes

 

[eerr]

i oughta own you with my grigori str 4 cmb 5 warrior heros just for this bs
ALL OF YOU
except maybe the civilised ones

 

[QES]

i oughta own you with my grigori str 4 cmb 5 warrior heros just for this bs
ALL OF YOU
except maybe the civilised ones

What a funny thing to say in a civilization forum, did you just exclude everyone? .
-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I have uploaded the 8 game files and the 4 gamenotes files. They can be found on the cooresponding writeup page.

Anyone with an interest can try to recreate the games, or improve upon them. As stated in the introduction, no game was played perfectly, so see what you can do.

 

[QES]

HEY both of you, knock it off seriously. I have good healthy thoughts about the future when I come to this forum, because i see intellectual people talking candidly but civily with each other about various topics of intellegencia and prosperous potential in the future.

I have a fond affection for the gamers of Civ because you all give me hope that in RL the world could follow our lead, and become more peaceful, more progressive, and more knowledgable because of the shared Theme of wonder and excitment about history and our collective futures.

Let us not drag ourselves down and destroy my illusions please. Let us remain civil.
-Qes

 

[AndrewDJ]

HEY both of you, knock it off seriously. I have good healthy thoughts about the future when I come to this forum, because i see intellectual people talking candidly but civily with each other about various topics of intellegencia and prosperous potential in the future.

I have a fond affection for the gamers of Civ because you all give me hope that in RL the world could follow our lead, and become more peaceful, more progressive, and more knowledgable because of the shared Theme of wonder and excitment about history and our collective futures.

Let us not drag ourselves down and destroy my illusions please. Let us remain civil.
-Qes

I agree, and second the sentiment. Let's give Unser a chance to finish presenting all his data and methodology, before we start resorting to abusive ad hominem attacks, straw men, hasty generalizations, and all the rest of the vast panoply of informal logical fallacies.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Sorry to the community for losing my temper. But the data are sacred. I used to have to sign my name to every page of my labbook. Hell, if I mispelled a word and corrected it, I'd have to sign and a date the spelling correction, plus sign my name at the bottom of the page. If I lied there the FDA could have thrown my ass in jail. So don't accuse my of lying about data, please. You note I don't give a damn about being called a rotten Civ player. I could care less. Just don't accuse me of cribbing an experiment. That wil not go unchallenged. I bite.

Anyway, this is over from my end. Now to get the next bit written up and posted.

 

[Thunderfall]

I have cleaned up this thread a bit (deleted 8 posts and edited a few).

Moderator Action: Unser Giftzwerg and Sureshot: Stop the personal attacks. I would hate to have to delete more posts.

 

[Grillick]

I'm just sad that the initial save isn't available for the Lanun game. It'd be difficult to demonstrate the value of a coastal capital over an inland one with, you know, the capital already placed.

Aside from that, though, I look forward to reading your analyses.

 

[dreiche2]

well, just to clarify, I still agree with Sureshot in some points. I just don't see the need to argue too much about it anymore. Because of this (repeating myself):

I'm also confident that Kael & co make the right decisions in the end... and if not, we'll whine until their ears smoke so they change it in the next patch

 

[TheBoatman]

Thanks for the research. You certainly invested time in it. However, Lanun (especially on archipelagos) can run quite a lot of hammers a bit later, if:

you get prophecy of ragnarok + religious discipline (2 sea tiles -> 1 prophet = 2 hammer), giving one hammer per tile, but you will get a lot of great prophets

you build mines on every hill and workshops on every flatland, until you reach 2:1 sea : production tile ratio

since the effect of more hammers is reciprocal to turns, your main task is to get from those 1-5 hammer situations in all cities and have a production aimed one (usually capital), for more you can have slavery or conquest.

of course in the beginning part hammers are the main problem of sea tiles

a good way how to decide advantages of each civ could be to ask hof team to make a ffh2 section, or to make some other competition, where the players focused on certain civs can play their best

 

[Ghostmaker]

No, what is obvious that I have demonstrated a nearly 2:1 advantage in hammer production for the Ljosalfar.

Twice as many cottages built by the Ljosalfar than their nearest competitor. At least one of every other improvement built too .. the Clan wasn't able to build anything but Cottages.

Proves what? That the clan is slower in research, that you favored other techs as clan? Your tech strategy was completely different for each race because thats the point of the game.

At turn 200 the Ljosalfar had an army nearly twice the size, and definitely twice the STR as their nearest competitor.

TheElven nation totaled 35 population, a major, major boost over the 2nd place of 27 poplation. That was on the map with all the, you know, Flood Plains.

No nation was able to build a unit above STR 2. The Ljosalfar had already built three different types of units better than that. An Archer, a Hero, and 4Hunters. Everyone else, Warriors and Scouts and nary a unit-producing building built yet. (i.e. no one else had had time to build Archery Ranges, Hunting Lodges etc.

Small inconsistancies can be explained away by map variations or sub-perfect play. But a 2:1 differential cannot.

Why is this, because you expanded without a barb thread, you didn't loose units to barbs? Because you focused on military techs as the elves? By the way why didn't you build drowns as lanun or soldiers of kilmorph as dwarfs. They have str > 2 and doesn't require anything.

Imagine if I had selected a so-called "good" map for the Ljosalfar. Hell, I didn't even work the Flood Plain tiles until city four was built. I do believe you are on record as saying Flood Plain tiles are by far the best tiles for Cottages, even for the Ljosalfar? Well ... in point of fact you are wrong about that.

If you were right, the Khazad had the best possible map. And the Khazad, the Hammer-Meisters, were out-hammered nearly 2:1.

All that is needed is a few forests in the realm. Starting civs are small. 12 forest tiles are not needed for a city of size 3. Then after their 2nd invention the Ljosalfar can start spamming cottages in woods.

You seem to feel teh burden of proof is on me. You think you can just say all these two to one imbalances are just due to the maps. Well, sorry. A two to one imbalanced means the burden of proof is now firmly on you. Perhaps that burden was once mine, but I shouldered it, and delivered up the numbers.

It's now the Elf-defender's turn.

Anyone called for me .

What you proved is simply one fact. The elves have a good start provided they have usefull land near their starting location. So does every other civ with a good starting location and strategy.

My biggest point is that you only played early game, not mid-/lategame. You have a friendly neighbor shielding you from barbarians. Try your tactic again on your own, having to defend against the barbs. The numbers would be lower for sure.
Also the problems for the elves start in midgame, they don't have problems in early game. Continue your games a bit lets say till the elohim have at least archers or better crossbows and a religion, then attack them, try to take their cities and see yourself fail. You will need your high production and your hero to cover your insane losses. Then keep in mind, that in 0.15 the strength of your attackers were even lowered penalising them further.

The elves are designed as economy strong, I never said otherwise. Their problems are in their unit's or the lack them. They start out okay provided a good starting point, but they are getting weaker and weaker over time, while all the civs are getting stronger and stronger.

Greets Ghostmaker

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'm just sad that the initial save isn't available for the Lanun game. It'd be difficult to demonstrate the value of a coastal capital over an inland one with, you know, the capital already placed.

Aside from that, though, I look forward to reading your analyses.

I am combing through the note files now, and during this process I sort of anticipated this point rising. I should have the last write-up done this evening. I'll try to address this specific point in the writeup, or at least in an addendum posting. You raise a valid point, but I think I'll have a convincing counterpoint once I crunch the numbers.

(This process is slow not because of the number-crunsching. It's the data collection that is tedious. )