Ancient and Classical buildings Elimination Thread

[konokoni]

This is hard at this point...

Ancestral Hall (19)
Granary (3) (2+1): I don't think this is the worst building on this list at this point. I think this is a solid building that belongs in every city, and often earlier than some / all of the other remaining buildings. The sooner your city grows, the sooner you can work tiles, the faster you can build districts, etc.
Library (10)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (4)
Monument (37)
Temple (6) (9-3): I'm surprised the shrine was eliminated before the temple as I will often rush for a shrine for the GPP but hold off on the temple while working on other priorities. It's a solid building but it is a much lower priority than the ones remaining on this list.

 

[JhGf_123]

Ancestral Hall (19)
Granary (Eliminated)
Library (10)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (4)
Monument (37)
Temple (7) (6+1)

I'll take faith over two housing any day of the week, especially when the Temple can also give me other yields such as food or culture, and especially when I can use that faith to purchase builders — who can give me the housing the granary would otherwise give.

That's before we even consider the fact that Temples are a literal requirement for winning a religious victory ......

 

[Josephias]

Ancestral Hall (19)
Library (7)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (5)
Monument (37)
Temple (7)


Library (10-3=7): Science is king, and this has brought the Library up to here, but considering the competition, I think here library starts to pale. Yes, this is probably one of my standard insta-build with gold as soon as the district is on place (faith with Jesuit education works even better), but at his point, this makes not much diference with the competence. And of all the remaining list, the Library is the dullest building, with no other associate benefit than the science yield. I think it is a good place for it to go.

Market (4+1=5) If the library is an insta-build, Market is as well, to benefit asap from the extra trade route, that can pay for it. Of course, if we are not talking of a coastal city with lighthouse (but as many have said, even if you, like me are a maritime builder, at least 1/2 of your cities tend to be inland). So, to generate a bit of Library-Market-Temple competition, let's give it an upvote.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Library (7)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (5)
Monument (37)
Temple (4)

Ancestral Hall 20 (19+1): Seeing a lot of comments about how you can build builders if you need them....or use faith/gold to buy them (ignoring that the cost goes up each time, and it costs you faith/gold that you then can't spend on something else, and early-mid game gold especially is at a premium). The AH doesn't just give you free builders, it gives you them instantly. Going back to the days of the SMAC, I was introduced to the concept of Turn Advantage by Velocyrix's famous guide. Those instant, free, builders are Turn Advantage personified. Couple it with Serfdom, Pyramids and either Monumentality or (my favourite) Hic Sunt Dracones and it becomes mega powerful. With 10 turns of settling, your single settler is now a 6 pop city with it's first district chopped into being and 3-4 improved tiles.

Temple 4 (7-3): I posted yesterday about my love/hate relationship with religious victories. If you want to powergame your way to the quickest possible win, this is the best building here by far. But that defeats the object of this thread. Unless you're going for a religious win, you might only build 1 or 2 of these in your empire, and that's not enough to keep it around.

Edit: updated with Josephias's scores

 

[Vargas1]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Library (7)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (6)
Monument (37)
Temple (1)

Market (6) - The top-three are in about the order I would rank them, and temple seems likely to go next. So the question is who finishes fourth. It's a close call, but I'd say market over library because the market is the key building in its district, whereas the library seems like it's a waypoint on the way to universities. I'll build a library/market in each district I have, but it's not uncommon for me to stop with the market in CHs - the trade route is really what I'm looking for, and the extra gold from banks/stock exchanges is usually not necessary except when going for Big Ben or in a handful of cities without much else to do. On the other hand, universities are the real jewel in the campus line, particularly if (as I always try to do) you target Newton to buff them even more. It's also not tough to get 3 envoys into every scientific city-state to increase university output even more. Libraries are fine, especially with envoys and/or Hypatia, but are not meant to be the terminal building in the district.

Temple (1) - Clearly a must-have if you're going for religious victory. For any other victory condition, even if you found a religion you can easily go the whole game without building these (or maybe building one to fill out your beliefs). In the heavy majority of games where I found a religion but am not going for a religious victory, my playstyle is based on benefits from the holy site itself - work ethic, reliquaries, divine inspiration, jesuit education - not on the presence of temples or spreading the religion (probably 75% of my games I automatically go work ethic and religious settlements). It's rare to get Choral Music given that is almost always the first or second belief selected. A good building, but I think this is about as far as it should go.

 

[Francel]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Library (4) (7-3) - Hoping temple won't go next, and this is next lowest...
Lighthouse (26)
Market (6)
Monument (37)
Temple (2) (1+1) -

(I wrote this very quickly and needed to do lots of editing, so apologies for any confusion)

_________________________________________________

I lament seeing temple on the cusp of elimination this early.

Temples aren't limited in scope to religious victory... Temples are important for culture too... Through apostles, temple can also augment conquest! Even science!

Temples:
-Provide faith (May provide culture, food/housing, and gold as well)
-Can house a relic, which provides faith and tourism at the very least
-Grant access to apostles

Faith has so many uses --> monumentality, great people patronage, naturalists, rock bands, GMC, religious units

Apostles spread your religion, launch inquisition, combat opposing religious units, and evangelize beliefs. Heck, even if you aren't going religion or culture victory, there is much utility for conquest... chaplain and crusade... It is even true apostles can give you more science than a library! Sacred places? Cross-cultural dialogue?

More I think about it, there is a ton of utility across gameplay styles, much more so than the gold and trade route from market.

 

[canadamufc]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Library (1) (4-3) I downvoted the Lighthouse and Market so I guess this is next. By no means a bad building, but out of the rest of these I think the Library has the least flexibility. Awesome in the good time, but sometimes lacks when you don't need science too badly.
Lighthouse (26)
Market (6)
Monument (37)
Temple (3) (2+1) This doesn't only help with RV. That is false. People forget that religion is flexible and can be used anyway you like. Domination? Take crusade. Science? Cross Cultural Dialogue is for you. Culture? Well, not only the faith generation that the temple has helps a lot but you can also take Choral Music/World Church for bonus culture. Diplomatic? You're gonna need this for Mahabodhi, but you can also take Tithe for extra gold to use in Aid Requests. Religion? Self explanatory. You need a temple to make your religion the best it can be.

I already explained how OP Monumentality is with the Temple, so me saying it again would be redundant.

Also, good luck defending your religion without apostles (which need a temple!). The AI will roll over you with their OP debaters if you can't fight back. Even if you DON'T have a religion, it's still a very strong building. Great faith generation for Monumentality, Rock Bands, Naturalists, getting great people when you can't get enough points, the list goes on and on.

 

[fy00sh]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Library (Eliminated)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (6)
Monument (37)
Temple (4)

Library (-2) (1-3) I only every use this when I'm lagging behind in science and can't get a new campus down quick, and even then it doesn't help much. Best used to get to Universities.
Temple (4) (3+1) Personally, I'd put Temple at the #4 spot, and I'm really hoping it can hold on til then. I literally never play a game without religion, and every time, having at least one temple is essential. Religious victory is obvious. Culture victory? Reliquaries or Choral music, Synagogue for more faith for Great People, rock bands, and naturalists. Science? Cross cultural dialogue. Domination? Crusade, and convert at least a few key cities that might prove troublesome to take. Diplo? Religious unity, Pagodas. Plus faith is great for Monumentality, which works great with the Ancestral Hall, which is sitting pretty at 20 points right now. Ancestral Hall is great, but without Monumentality and high faith I don't think it'd be anywhere near as good. And I don't really wanna have more than half my cities at most having a district slot taken up by a holy site.

 

[The Civs 6]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Lighthouse (26)
Market (6) +1 = 7
Monument (37)
Temple (4) -3 = 1

Trade routes are good in every game. Markets are also a first tier building. By contrast, temples are not useful in about half the games. And temples are a tier 2 building. For those two reasons, markets are categorically better than temples.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Ancestral Hall (20)
Lighthouse (23) 26-3

While the Lighthouse is better than the market due to its flexibility and simply giving more stuff, I don't think the distance should be that great and it's somewhat dubious why is this reigning above the AH as well. Remember the extra food from the lighthouse is not good as it seems-- harbor building bonuses are strong for a reason and that's because water tiles are unusable on its own. Both the food and housing are really just a compensation to make the city even usable in the first place-- remember that settling on the coast is often already a -2 housing prospect.


Most of what a lighthouse does is turns coast tiles from a useless 1f1g to a mediocre 2f1g, aka still a waste of time to work for most of the game. It does better with sea resources (still mediocre) and with Mausoleum/Auckland but that should be credited because those things are so strong, not because the lighthouse is good.

I suppose you could flip this around and claim that because a lighthouse/harbor is so essential to a coastal city that it is why it should be regarded so highly, and commercial hub buildings are kinda lame in a sense but I'm just saying it's not just all that.

Furthermore, typically speaking lighthouses are on of a inferior tech path early game, requiring Astrology and also the leaf tech Celestial Navigation while going Currency is required anyways and thus markets follow a more natural path. Some strategies, especially religious ones (Japan/Russia in particular) don't mind Astro--> Cele Navigation but even in those cases it will increase your district costs for unlocking a minimum of 2 districts for any other strategy.

Late game, harbors do reign superior, but this is not necessarily true before that.



Market (8) 7+1

Great Merchants are quite strong great people and while not needed to get them, it would be kinda silly not to build this building. Although maybe this shouldn't have outlasted the Library.


Monument (37)
Temple (1)

 

[tedhebert]

Ancestral Hall (21) (20+1) Best one left in my mind
Lighthouse (23)
Market (8)
Monument (37)
Temple (-2) (1-3) ELIMINATED it was time for this one to go

 

[Naeshar]

Ancestral Hall (21)
Lighthouse (23)
Market (5)
Monument (38)

Finally very few choices. So many upvotes for Market, but it has to go now.
Market (8-3) Since the CS bonus was reduced and given to Harbor, this is less worth.
Monument (37+1) Value.

 

[kaspergm]

Ancestral Hall (21)
Lighthouse (23)
Market (2) (5-3) - I guess this is the time for the market to go. A pet peeve of mine for a long time has been the way Commercial Hub and Harbor are designed: I hate the fact that the "commercial" Harbor was not changed to be a water-equivalent of the Commercial Hub, similarly to how the Water Park is a water equivalent of the Entertainment Complex. The CH should get adjacency bonus from luxuries, and the market should add gold on luxury and bonus resources in town. I love the extra trade route provided by the market, but I agree that in almost all situations the lighthouse is the hands-down better option.
Monument (39) (38+1) - I guess I'll throw a vote for Monument because of its universal availability and usefulness. It makes a big difference in early game yet still stays relevant throughout the game.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Ancestral Hall (21)
Lighthouse (20)
Market (3)
Monument (39)

Lighthouse (23-3 = 20) needs a coastal city, they're better than they were but still take a lot of work to be productive.

Market (2+1 = 3) can't believe this is so far behind the Lighthouse, I guess it depends on your playstyle / maps etc but I'll build 4 of these for every lighthouse.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Ancestral Hall (21)
Lighthouse (20)
Market ELIMINATED (3-3)
Monument (40) [39+1]

I agree with the posters above that the gap between the Market and the Lighthouse is too large. However, be that as it may, the Market is still the worst building remaining on this list, and I'm not going to upvote Markets and downvote Lighthouses just to create some weird semblance of justice and drag this thread out for another day pointlessly. It is time for Markets to go.

The Monument is the Monument, it's just so good.

I do think Libraries just stuck around too long and that gives bad guidance to new players. You can delay Libraries a lot and not really risk your Scientific prowess as long as you have properly placed Campuses and pursue Eurekas appropriately. Indeed, I think they're a big waste of production early on - 90 production is a lot for +2 Science. You can put 90 production in making something that will trigger a Eureka for comparable Science and which does other useful things on top.

Aside from that this thread seems not overly controversial.

 

[TCBB]

Ancestral Hall (21)
Lighthouse (17)(20-3)
Monument (41) (40+1)

With the exception of the early Audience Chamber debate, a broadly uncontroversial elimination thread.

Monument rightly emerges as the winner: early culture is king, and Monuments are a cheap & easy way to boost that culture. It's probably the biggest advice I give to new players of the game: don't forget to build (or buy) your Monuments!

In a game that rewards wide play, Ancestral Hall takes rightful second place for me. Lighthouses are great, but obviously they come with the prerequisite of coast.

 

[bengalryan9]

Ancestral Hall (18) (21-3)
Lighthouse (18) (17+1)
Monument (41)

As good as the AH is, I won't always build it and it's impact goes away as the game goes on and you run out of places to settle. Lighthouses, on the other hand, I will always build as long as I have access to coast (and the amount of games I've played where I've been completely landlocked I can count on one hand) and the trade routes will serve me all game long.

 

[Leucarum]

Ancestral Hall (18)
Lighthouse (15)
Monument (42)

The lighthouse (18-3) should probably have gone before now I suspect. It's being overvalued a little IMO. Trade routes are great but the food yields are quite weak at the start. Monument (41+1 = the meaning of life, the universe and everything) should hopefully be the clear winner.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Ancestral Hall (18)
Lighthouse (12) (15-3)
Monument (43) (42+1)

Lighthouse: Third place is a respectable place for this. I'm not entering into the Lighthouse-Ancestral Hall debate, I'm just here to vote what I think is the better Building.

Monument: All hail the Monument god, ye who are of his cult! Hooka! Hooka! Hooka! Jokes aside, this simple Building is actually amazing. Keeps your wavering Cities loyal, provides Culture and extra Culture if they are completely loyal, dirt-cheap, and requires no Civic or Technology. What is not to love about this?

 

[Vargas1]

Ancestral Hall (15)
Lighthouse (13)
Monument (43)

Lighthouse (13) - Monument is and should be first, so it's just sorting out second place. I love coastal cities - exploration is fun, you can use land tiles for pure production or districts and not worry about food, and cities settled later in the game tend to have to be coastal cities. The Lighthouse is what makes them go.

Ancestral Hall (15) - Someone has to get a downvote. About the only bad thing I can say is that sometimes I get around to building this too late to be of greatest use.