ANCIENT "Terra Fantasia" Mod Thread, Now For Reference Only

[Blue Monkey]

Ozy -

in the process of retracing sources for images recovered the link for a dense but useful chart. The downside is that most of the included graphs stop at 10k years BP or use millions of years as a base unit. So there is not much detail specific to the timeframe you are working with - at least for the first era. OTOH, it does show relationships between climatic change and culture which you could extrapolate from.

And just skimming it for the broad outlines is useful: There are overlapping cycles, cycles vary, cycles reinforce or dampen each other, there is not an exact synchrony between cycles, cycles affect different parts of the world differently. The consequences play out geologically and geographically, as well as ecologically and culturally. We just don't understand things well enough as a species to know with precision which synchronicities involve causal relationships and which are correlations. Ultimately, at this point, we're left with the scientific equivalent of best guesses.

In an alternate world/history a different set of alignments might both minimize some effects and push others to extremes. The deeper you go chronologically the more "butterfly effect" you've got to free up your imagination. Not just in terms of the map, either. The chart has some info on the cultural responses, albeit nothing on the scale of deep history.

Your beginning point is a punctuated equilibrium so different that we "left home" on the other side of the last turning of the mysterious 100,000 year cycle. In addition to climatic and geological divergences, There's room for a lot of imaginative speculation about how your culture groups and the individual civs within them would respond to a different physical world.

I'm sure a lot of us are eager to see how you play the improvisations and riffs of this particular Fantasia.

 

[Ozymandias]

Ozy - in the process of retracing sources for images recovered the link for a dense but useful chart. The downside is that most of the included graphs stop at 10k years BP or use millions of years as a base unit. So there is not much detail specific to the timeframe you are working with - at least for the first era. OTOH, it does show relationships between climatic change and culture which you could extrapolate from.

A most excellent find!

The consequences play out geologically and geographically, as well as ecologically and culturally. We just don't understand things well enough as a species to know with precision which synchronicities involve causal relationships and which are correlations. Ultimately, at this point, we're left with the scientific equivalent of best guesses.

In an alternate world/history a different set of alignments might both minimize some effects and push others to extremes. The deeper you go chronologically the more "butterfly effect" you've got to free up your imagination. Not just in terms of the map, either. The chart has some info on the cultural responses, albeit nothing on the scale of deep history.

Your beginning point is a punctuated equilibrium so different that we "left home" on the other side of the last turning of the mysterious 100,000 year cycle. In addition to climatic and geological divergences, There's room for a lot of imaginative speculation about how your culture groups and the individual civs within them would respond to a different physical world.

Which is precisely why my "Culture Groups" are not linked by geographic / ethnic / linguistic / confessional lines. The 4 Civs of each Culture Group are scattered as evenly and sensibly as possible around the globe; e.g., of the Sea Peoples, Thule begins on the Scandinavian Island, Yeppen in SE Asia, Ehecatl on the Gulf Of Mexico, and Hyrkania on a one-tile-wide "land bridge" between the Black and Caspian Seas.

- Any and all input is more than welcome!!

-z

 

[Blue Monkey]

Just realized I have no idea how early the scenario begins. Are we in the "Quest for Fire" era at the start?

 

[Ozymandias]

Just realized I have no idea how early the scenario begins. Are we in the "Quest for Fire" era at the start?

~135,000 years ago, during the "Eemian Maximum" (temperature.)

Historically, Homo sapiens sapiens remained culturally stagnant (albeit with fire) for some 170,000 years, until about 30,000 years ago - dates differ a bit - during what is sometimes called the "Great Leap Forward" (see spoiler) occurred, with the human "toolkit," art production etc. exploding. (Interestingly, this coincided when Homo sapiens would have first encountered Homo Neandertalensis ("Neanderthal Man") in the Middle East- and interbred with them (everyone of non-purely African descent possesses 1%-4% Neanderthal DNA.)

Spoiler :

Then, about 60,000 years ago (give or take), something important happened in Africa - a sea change in human behaviour. Tools became much more finely crafted. They were made of materials like bone, which allowed the development of deadlier weapons. Group hunting methods became more efficient. Art also made an appearance -clear evidence that our ancestors were capable of abstract, contemplative thought. Overall, it really isn't hyperbole to talk about a "great leap forward" in mental abilities, to use anthropologist Jared Diamond's term.

What caused the great leap? Was it, as some researchers believe, a favourable mutation in a language gene - such as the recently described FOXP2 gene, implicated in some hereditary speech defects? The jury is still out, but recent studies suggest that complex characteristics (perhaps including modern syntactic language) can be created from pre-existing genetic variations. As conditions worsened during the ice age, our brains had to become better, and changes that favoured this would have been worth their weight in gold - or at least antelope meat.

"Terra Fantasia" re-rigs the game with H.s.s performing the same "Out Of Africa" migration some 100,000 years earlier (the common ancestor of H.s.s. and Neanderthals existed some 800,000 years ago.) Again, barely the blink of an eye in evolutionary, let alone geological time.

Part of what drew me to the notion of TF in the first place was the complete freedom from any urge to emulate actual history whatsoever, while nevertheless keeping the premise at least somewhat possible: We know roughly what shapes and sizes the land masses were; have our best knowledge of climate/ecology from Europe (again, hippos in the Thames) certainly have a decent sense of what flora and fauna were where (to the best of my research) with the exception of the oceans; arguably, the greatest "liberty" I've taken is not the earlier human migration, but the near-global distribution of Equus (horses; zebras; etc.) out of North America, which historically occurred during the last Ice Age (ironic, huh? - they evolved in North America and were re-introduced by Europeans) when the land bridge from Siberia to Alaska existed.

Methinks enough pedantry for now.

 

[timerover51]

Hyrkania on a one-tile-wide "land bridge" between the Black and Caspian Seas.[/B]

- Any and all input is more than welcome!!

-z

Oz, I am looking at the map, and I do not see a one-tile wide land bridge between the Black and the Caspian Seas.

 

[Ozymandias]

Oz, I am looking at the map, and I do not see a one-tile wide land bridge between the Black and the Caspian Seas.

The mod's still a work in progress. The map I posted is, within reason, accurate, and is for others to use.

As I wish to have 4 Civs for each Culture "Type," I was at a bit of loss for a fourth location for the Sea Peoples. An "obvious" choice would have been the Mediterranean, but part of what I'm trying to do viz. game play is (1) distribute the 4 Civs within each Culture Type as uniformly as possible, and (2) force interaction between Cultures (very different militaries etc.) and having the 4th Sea Peoples Civ in the Med would have brought them into contact with the Thulians far too soon. So I riffed, for the game map (not the "accurate" one posted for others to use) and narrowed the gap between Seas to a one-tile land bridge (see attached; I'm also admittedly playing a bit helter-skelter, elsewhere, again for playability, e.g. by "nudging" a volcano or two. )

Cheers,
Oz

 

[timerover51]

Greetings, Oz, I now understand that the map is still somewhat of a work in progress, and your desire for widespread cultures. Your time of 135,000 years ago puts it right between the two periods that I have worked most on with respect to climate and ecology, at least for North America, at about 300,000 years ago, circa the beginnings of the Rancholebrean Age, and about 15,000 to 30,000 years ago, at the peak of the Wisconsinian Glaciation.

With respect to the Thulians and the Hyrkanians running into each other too soon (love that use of Hyrkania, ala REH), the way I play the game, that will happen soon even with the Hyrkanians between the Black Sea and the Caspian. If playing either, my standard exploratory expeditions run along the coast of whatever continent or island they are on, and keep going until either die or circumnavigate. Only exception is if I pop a settler from a goodie hut. Then I find a nice place for a coastal city, and proceed onward. The same thing will hold true for South-East Asia, since I can go right through your natural Suez Canal.

What is the speed of your equivalent to the curragh, and I will let you know how long before contact? How long do you want it to be?

 

[timerover51]

I made contact between the Byzantines (nee Hyrkanians) and the Scandinavians (nee Thulians) 41 turns, with a curragh of speed 2 plus 1 additional movement factor for Seafaring. Is that too fast for your thinking?

 

[Ozymandias]

I made contact between the Byzantines (nee Hyrkanians) and the Scandinavians (nee Thulians) 41 turns, with a curragh of speed 2 plus 1 additional movement factor for Seafaring. Is that too fast for your thinking?

I don't have all the Civs in place on the map yet. "Between" the two are going to be a Forest Peoples Civ ("Baroda") in south-central Europe as well as a Plains Peoples Civ ("Ekkaia") in (very fertile) NW Africa; a River Peoples Civ ("Uqbar") near the headwaters of the Nile; etc. Likewise a Civ NE of Uqbar and E of Hyrkania.

Oceans aside, I'm spacing the starting cities for the Civs so that each has at least 2 other Civs ~20 tiles away (there will be some exceptions: south of the Ehecatl Civ will be three in South America (the one which will have access to neither Horses nor Elephants at first, but "Terror Birds" instead") two roughly straddling the widest part of that continent, with the 3rd far more south, in the "pampas" (Savannah) area.

I think it's great that you're tinkering with the map Once I have all 20 Civs placed I'll start posting "playtest" versions in the 1st post of this thread.

Also, thank you for commenting on Hyrkania. I've gotneto great pains and research to not make up names but rather pull ones from mythology (perhaps our myths are remnants of an earlier reality) and literate ("Uqbar" is from the fantastical Argentinian author Jorge Luis Borges' "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbus Tertius.") Some other randomly picked examples for cities:

• Gihon (the river flowing out of Eden)
• Mictlan (the underworld of Aztec mythology)
• Nilch'i Diyin (Navajo: "Holy Wind")
• Unkulunkulu (the Zulu creation god)

Plus a fair "borrowing" from Conan; lesser known places from Tolkien (e.g., "Nen Girith" - 'Shuddering Water' - a cascading waterfall on the stream of Celebros, where it flowed down to meet the River Taeglin on the borders of Brethil.) etc.

With Civ / City names, I'm trying to keep those as congruous-sounding per Civ as possible (e.g., cities in Stygia in southern Africa have names like: Uhlanga, Abydos, Harakht, Ibi, Sissengzi.)

I'm also shooting for "UUs" both for Culture Types as well as individual Civs.

Onwards & Upwards,
Oz

 

[Gojira54]

Game Concepts:

2. Some time ago, I mused about how environmental conditions might effect military development.
Accordingly, I utilize the 5 available “Culture Groups” to reflect the primary geography they developed in (Sea, Plains, Hills, Rivers, Forest.) These groups are evenly distributed across the globe, as opposed to any sort of geographical proximity, with each Group possessing Civs with different flavors.

Quite interesting. My current project includes a starting tech for each terrain. a different way to get to the same concept. I kept the Culture Groups as based on cultural similarities.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Not shown is the “Cavalry” line, as it's fairly predictable in the ways Elephas and Equus units evolve ... But I did mention that neither are present in South American: the two Civs which begin there can build “Terror Bird” mounted units, wonderfully supplied by Hikaro Takayama’s “Chocobo” units (see attached.)

... there will be some exceptions: south of the Ehecatl Civ will be three in South America (the one which will have access to neither Horses nor Elephants at first, but "Terror Birds" instead") two roughly straddling the widest part of that continent, with the 3rd far more south, in the "pampas" (Savannah) area.

I'm sure you've got them in your line already, but for the sake of having the images for comparison ...

Terror Bird Rider


Veteran Terror Bird Rider
or noble or chief or sergeant

Supa's set includes both early cav units and resource graphics.

 

[Ozymandias]

Quite interesting. My current project includes a starting tech for each terrain. a different way to get to the same concept. I kept the Culture Groups as based on cultural similarities.

Might I suggest we structure a way (perhaps a new thread?) to get some synergy going here?

 

[Ozymandias]

I am currently wondering how-and-if to deal specifically with wild animals (probably as Barbarian units) in Terra Fantasia.

Elephants were more ubiquitous in horses at this time (the horse evolved in North America, then migrated across the Siberian/Alaskan land bridge which existed during the last Ice Age.)

I have decided to play "fast and loose" with horses, especially given how cavalry units are critical to Civ3 in general, and am distributing them freely throughout the world, with the exceptions of marsupial and giant-flightless bird ruled South America and Australia.

Australia begins the game uninhabited, and the 3 South American Civs have non-strategic-resource depend "terror bird" units - They were, actuality, probably extinct by the time of this mod, although some lingering doubts remain (and all this is part of why I put "Fantasia" in the mod's name.)

Along these lines: tom 2050 made a "Teratorn Rider" unit. This extinct, giant condor:

"Discovered at Legion Park, Oregon. It [had] an estimated wingspan of over 4 meters (14 ft). The find dates to the late Pleistocene, between 11,000 and 12,000 years ago, in a strata which is filled with the bones of Mastodon, Sloth and Condors, bears, and evidence of human habitation."

Large enough to carry an unarmored person with the skills and size of a modern day jockey? Probably not, but there's that "Fantasia" bit again, and the idea of an aerial UU appearing very early in the game - and obsolete long before the arrival of airships on the scene, is quite tempting - I'd really appreciate any feedback on this!

Insofar as wild animals are concerned, we (once again, thanks to tom2050) have smilodons, dire wolves, bears, and other "fantastical" beasts I'd happily press into play.

Nonetheless, I'm perplexed as to how to best utilize them to add enjoyment to a game. A smilodon killing off a player's first Settler would be no joy; also, at what point (i.e., Tech Level & Unit AF/DF) would/should make wild animals moot - And then what relevance would those left wandering around have?

-z

 

[Gojira54]

Sorry for the very late response, I meant to quite awhile back but was then hit with a few crises at once and this thread fell out of my brain

I should stress that the terrain based starting tech is my "ideal scenario", but the exact extent to which it will be used is still up in the air as the mod progresses. The concept of mine is to have each tribe have a very different playing experience based on a very immersive exploration of their culture - UU, Unique buildings, traits, language, terrain preference, gov. preference, religion, diet, art, music etc. So the terrain is but a piece of the larger puzzle.

Ideally the terrain tech would allow for a unique strat resource on that terrain which would allow for a terrain-specific building that requires that resource in the city radius. At the moment I am having a hard time finding room for those resources and buildings, so my Plan B would be to simply have UU for each tribe that ignores movement costs on the preferred terrain. Not as much as I would like, bit still adds a bit of the flavor I am looking for.

Interesting because I too am using multiple animal rider unit lines, and have a mod which is mostly based on human history with about 5-10% fantasy thrown in. I think it is quite different from yours in other ways though. We never got our Rhino Rider from DomPedro did we?

 

[timerover51]

Greetings, Oz. I will throw another one at you. I was looking over the early Warhammer Empire book, where it has the Empire Steamtank. Note, I do not play Warhammer, but do mine it for ideas.

By about 1860, steam traction engines, sometimes called "road locomotives", where being used in England, and in 1871, the first attempt by the British Army to use steam-powered road transport in the Ashanti campaign was made. As the scenario is supposed to be a bit "Fantasy", have you considered using the steam tank at all? You could also use some of the Warhammer steam ships that are in the downloads base for ships. The link is to the steam tank.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=235

 

[Blue Monkey]

Australia begins the game uninhabited, and the 3 South American Civs have non-strategic-resource depend "terror bird" units - They were, actuality, probably extinct by the time of this mod, although some lingering doubts remain (and all this is part of why I put "Fantasia" in the mod's name.)

Not as fantastic as it sounds. Apparently we wiped out many species as we migrated into new regions, but that was not the only anthropogenic effect. We managed to transform wild canids into dogs - greatly changing their size and ferocity amongst other characteristics. It's not unreasonable that given the much earlier migration in this scenario we would not only train mammoths, but genetically manipulate (through selective breeding) the large predator birds to become war mounts. As to lingering doubts - there is some evidence of their spread into Southern regions of North America & Western Africa. So if you're strapped for African cavalry ideas ...

I have decided to play "fast and loose" with horses, especially given how cavalry units are critical to Civ3 in general, and am distributing them freely throughout the world, with the exceptions of marsupial and giant-flightless bird ruled South America and Australia.

Might I suggest Zebra Riders ( Dom Pedro's & ShiroKobbure's) as flavor or UUs for the African civs?

.... Probably not, but there's that "Fantasia" bit again, and the idea of an aerial UU appearing very early in the game - and obsolete long before the arrival of airships on the scene, is quite tempting - I'd really appreciate any feedback on this!

Back to South America ... There is some speculation that since the Nazca Lines are best observed from the air the indigenous people must have had some form of balloons. tom2050's early balloon or embryodead's airship might serve - perhaps even as a late First Era UU.

At the moment I am having a hard time finding room for those resources and buildings, ...

Is the primary issue the problem with resources that requires special attention to the sequence they are listed in?

 

[Blue Monkey]

As the scenario is supposed to be a bit "Fantasy", have you considered using the steam tank at all?

... with Tech ending ~1950 CE our timeline.
[*]Technology has progressed slightly differently than in our history, yielding metallurgy just enough of an edge to keep boilers from bursting in "steam tanks." (Similar quirks have led to "armor" - and bomb sights - sufficient to keep airships dominant over airplanes for decades.)

There are also Wyrmshadow's excellent units which would be suitable for the cusp of a late-game transition to dieselpunk.

 

[Gojira54]

Is the primary issue the problem with resources that requires special attention to the sequence they are listed in?[/QUOTE]

Oh I am well versed in that thread, participated in it. Right now I have 8 Lux and 22 Strat not including Terrain resources, leaving me only room for 2 more, and there are much more terrains. For now, I am going the direction of there being a Bonus resource and a terrain specific UU, as well as the tribe-specific UU ignoring movement penalties for said terrain.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Knew you would be. Linked it to avoid the uninitiated derailing this thread.

 

[Ozymandias]

Sorry for the very late response, I meant to quite awhile back but was then hit with a few crises at once and this thread fell out of my brain

I should stress that the terrain based starting tech is my "ideal scenario", but the exact extent to which it will be used is still up in the air as the mod progresses. The concept of mine is to have each tribe have a very different playing experience based on a very immersive exploration of their culture - UU, Unique buildings, traits, language, terrain preference, gov. preference, religion, diet, art, music etc. So the terrain is but a piece of the larger puzzle.

Ideally the terrain tech would allow for a unique strat resource on that terrain which would allow for a terrain-specific building that requires that resource in the city radius. At the moment I am having a hard time finding room for those resources and buildings, so my Plan B would be to simply have UU for each tribe that ignores movement costs on the preferred terrain. Not as much as I would like, bit still adds a bit of the flavor I am looking for.

Interesting because I too am using multiple animal rider unit lines, and have a mod which is mostly based on human history with about 5-10% fantasy thrown in. I think it is quite different from yours in other ways though. We never got our Rhino Rider from DomPedro did we?

No apologies necessary! - And, sadly, no Rhino Rider from DomPedro.

I'm starting the different "Culture/Ecosystem Types" in terrain appropriate to their "affiliation;" Sea, Plains, Rivers, Hills, Forest.

Along with a Palace, each Civ starts with a Culture-specific Obelisk (same graphic, as I don't think that graphically differentiating there is importance.)

Each Obelisk is inexpensive, and yields one each of Culture, Happiness, and Trade - and thereby I'm presuming it'll be the first Improvement the AI builds in each city.

Various buildings are entirely dependent upon the appropriate Obelisk being built (the equivalent of some of the various Coastal-benefit ones for the Sea Peoples; Commerce-generating Wood Mills for the Forest Peoples; the equivalent of Caravanserais for the Plains Peoples; etc.)

Just curious - Would this approach work for you?

Cheers,
Oz