ANCIENT "Terra Fantasia" Mod Thread, Now For Reference Only

[Blue Monkey]

Explaining how it affects you - and potential solutions - would depend on a better description of what you mean by "terrain tiles don't line up on the polar edges in the C3C Editor". It always gets to the "give us enough information to help you" stage at CFC, doesn't it?

 

[Ozymandias]

Explaining how it affects you - and potential solutions - would depend on a better description of what you mean by "terrain tiles don't line up on the polar edges in the C3C Editor". It always gets to the "give us enough information to help you" stage at CFC, doesn't it?

... So you name the bug then I explain? - But, of course, happily.

-z

 

[Blue Monkey]

Everything looks like it's lining up just fine!

& that's the polar "bug" - we have a choice between tundra or water for the visuals of the inaccessible tiles. We learn to ignore it, we make North-South wrap around as well as East-West, we sacrifice tundra terrain to make something prettier ... no solution (afaik), just something even players are aware of & is as invisible as the elephant in the room no one talks about.

For your purposes the most aesthetically pleasing solution is implicit in something you already wrote -

... areas of Antarctica which were indeed ice-free ...

- go ahead & have the inaccessible edge tundra, & put the minimal amount of actual coastal terrain you need to next to it.

Pounder's creative response - which was superceded by the later versions of the Firaxis editor - does points toward the suggested workaround. Given the extra LM available thru Quintillus' editor, maybe you could use LM coastal tundra (eliminating the land portion of the tiles).

I tried to track down the terrain someone made with ice floes. That could be adapted to the LM tundra coast. Couldn't find it with any of the keywords that came to mind. I guess worse comes to worst things like Pounder's tundra coast islands could be CnP'd & recolored to simulate ice. There is rhodie's iceberg unit. It would be straightforward to convert to a terrain feature or a decorative resource to help with the cosmetic changes.

Tangentially ... The search did reveal Pounder's penguins - perhaps a useful resource for the sub-polar regions. Even in our cooler climate we have them as far North as the Galapagos Islands.

 

[Ozymandias]

[...] & that's the polar "bug" - we have a choice between tundra or water for the visuals of the inaccessible tiles. [...] - go ahead & have the inaccessible edge tundra, & put the minimal amount of actual coastal terrain you need to next to it.

The problem is twofold: (1) I have Tundra set to impassable as I don't want galleys making equator-wide trips around the Arctic, and (2) having Grassland, of necessity, adjacent to Antarctic Tundra gives me hives ...

BTW, your idea for "Hero Stones" et. al. is essentially the notion I post as a "Stele" (perhaps "Obelisk" is better ) The notion is to have a limited "mixture" of types of Stele/Obelisk per Civ; there will be an Era I Tech called, "Monumental Architecture" and will require the "Sea People's Obelisk" present to build the Great Lighthouse, etc.

Workin' Away,
z

 

[Blue Monkey]

The problem is twofold: (1) I have Tundra set to impassable as I don't want galleys making equator-wide trips around the Arctic, and (2) having Grassland, of necessity, adjacent to Antarctic Tundra gives me hives ...

Understandable objections. If you're not otherwise using it LM Grassland could be next to the tundra & appear different.

 

[Ozymandias]

Understandable objections. If you're not otherwise using it LM Grassland could be next to the tundra & appear different.

What would you suggest?

 

[Blue Monkey]

What would you suggest?

Hard to be specific since I don't know what terrain set you're using & what nearby terrains you want. Let alone what about grass next to polar tundra gives you hives.

But as a generic idea - LM Grassland could be a mix of the usual "tundra" (which really looks more like snow) & grasses. I don't really like Firaxis' PTW winter terrain. But maybe something there would spark an idea.

Something closer to what I had in mind would take some CnP. Combining parts of Womoks' & Ares' tundra/grass transitions into a whole LM terrain instead of just small areas on certain tiles. Sort of a mix of snow (permafrost), muskeg (boreal bog) & grass. Maybe some clumps here & there of Pounder's heavier grassland. Wujah's Tp5 plains recolored with off-whites instead of tans (those big rocks add a nice post-glacial ambiance).




... which is much more like the appearance of real tundra (imagine these scenes on a warm winter day - with patches of snow & ice)




Or maybe editing just the tundra parts of one of those existing tile sets to look like the transitions would let the entire polar region seem like genuine tundra. IIRC the game uses the all-tundra tile in the pcx for the polar caps.

 

[timerover51]

The upper photo is the tundra vegetation that you would find in Denali National Park, although you also have some smallish pine and spruce there as well. The lower picture is how the tundra looks in the summer further north near the Brooks Range, where it is mainly marsh overlaying permafrost. Even assuming a warmer cycle, you still have the extreme differences in day and night length to deal with, so your growing season is still short. That would include the ground getting quite cold when radiating heat into space for a month or so of 24-hour darkness. The Taiga tree line would move a bit north, but not excessively so.

Note, I did my Army time in Alaska.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The upper picture is of Transbaikalia. The lower picture is of an area in the Taymir Penninsula region. Both are in central North Asia. "Taiga" includes muskeg as well as boreal forests. What's of immediate concern here is the base terrain. Forests are an overlay (separate pcx file) onto grassland, plains, or tundra.

Tundra formation isn't determined just by extreme seasonal effects of obliquity. Transbaikalia is at about 50º north - only a bit more than halfway from the equator to the pole. It's probable that altitude & precipitation patterns have more to do with the existence of tundra there than does lack of sunlight.

It's important to note also that the current discussion is about Antarctica in an entirely different climatic era. There's plenty of evidence that during the Eemian (time of this scenario) forests extended beyond 70º North latitude. In other warm eras they were known to extend to 80º South. These latitudes are at if not beyond the edge of the map. While there would be areas more like fellfield or steppe-tundra, imagining areas of boreal forest in warmer, ice-free, greener Antarctic coastal regions is not unreasonable.

The goal is to find a good transitional terrain from polar tiles to grassland tiles. Muskeg & boreal forest would also be more useful as a terrain graphic for other areas.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Park Tundra & Steppe Tundra were Pleistocene ecosystems that no longer exist. The written descriptions I have seen compare them to remnant areas of tundra found in island regions such as Svalbard in the North and islands extending from the Western Antarctic. Specific plant species may differ, but the general look is likely to be analogous to Eemian tundra as well. The Eemian was even warmer than any period of the Holocene (so far). More reason to expect both muskeg and boreal forests closer to the poles. Here are some more images - tundras including dwarf birch & willow (the shrub species version of what would be trees in slightly warmer or wetter regions).

Spoiler :

The more I dig into the paleo-ecological evidence, the more it looks like the CnP terrain mix suggested above. Just depends on what other terrain graphics you want to work with.

Wish my German wasn't so rusty. The German Wikipedia article on Mammoth Steppe is much more research-oriented & detailed than the English equivalent. It also has more links to dependable sources. The "Pleistocene Park" research station in Siberia is attempting to recreate the ecosystem (both flora & fauna) mammoths roamed in. Wild horses have already been introduced - another parallel to your proposed Eemian ecology. Interestingly, National Geographic describes the [to be] reconstructed terrain as "willow savannah". In terms of Civ terrain sort of feels like the grassland side of the transition under discussion.

Spoiler :

 

[Blue Monkey]

Evidently I was mistaken - there is a separate pcx for the polar caps. But what this means is that they can be made to look however and to match whatever is appropriate to the scenario.

 

[timerover51]

Having been thoroughly bludgeoned, I will keep any further views of far North terrain to myself.

Good luck with your mod, Oz.

 

[Ozymandias]

I will keep any further views of far North terrain to myself.

My dear fellow! I have come to have the highest regard for your knowledge - and, as the research I did into the Eemian Era might show, I like knowing about other incarnations of our Earth (BTW, whenever I place Tundra tiles on a map, I never forget that it was you who explained to me the reasoning re: Tundra / Grassland tiles.)

- Besides, I would, most selfishly, treasure any input you have re: extending the Age Of Steam, as we discussed.

,
Oz

 

[timerover51]

My dear fellow! I have come to have the highest regard for your knowledge - and, as the research I did into the Eemian Era might show, I like knowing about other incarnations of our Earth (BTW, whenever I place Tundra tiles on a map, I never forget that it was you who explained to me the reasoning re: Tundra / Grassland tiles.)

- Besides, I would, most selfishly, treasure any input you have re: extending the Age Of Steam, as we discussed.

,
Oz

I will let Blue Monkey advise you.

I did post some comments on the map in the mapmaking section concerning Alaska and the Mediterranean.

 

[Ozymandias]

Hard to be specific since I don't know what terrain set you're using & what nearby terrains you want. Let alone what about grass next to polar tundra gives you hives.

"Sn00py's Greener." Because of the way the game is built, Plains cannot be placed directly adjacent to Tundra. timerover explained to me why this is the case in the real world, which makes perfect sense, yet gives me hives as the nature of the grassland he describes is nothing like the fertile territory otherwise represented by Grassland tiles.

-z

 

[Blue Monkey]

the nature of the grassland he describes is nothing like the fertile territory otherwise represented by Grassland tiles.

Always bothered me that Plains, as in Great Plains, looks like the way Civ Grassland is described. Worked with data sets of the Southwestern USA holding dozens of distinct terrains in the process of learning ArcGIS for map-making. Thanks to embryodead, Quintillus, et al we've got about 30 to work with for the whole world. But the vast majority of them of them still depend on "grassland" as a base.

I'll see what I can do tomorrow about working with polar caps & Snoopy's Greener terrain.

 

[Ozymandias]

Always bothered me that Plains, as in Great Plains, looks like the way Civ Grassland is described. Worked with data sets of the Southwestern USA holding dozens of distinct terrains in the process of learning ArcGIS for map-making. Thanks to embryodead, Quintillus, et al we've got about 30 to work with for the whole world. But the vast majority of them of them still depend on "grassland" as a base.

I'll see what I can do tomorrow about working with polar caps & Snoopy's Greener terrain.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Map could potentially be used in some kind of post-global warming scenario...

The map is entirely done, with the caveat that areas of vegetation aren't precisely known for the Eemian, so I'm taking "artistic license" with an eye towards play balance - In short, if you'd like, I'm happy to post it.

As I mention, temperatures in the Eemian were sufficiently higher to allow hippos to frolic in the Thames; "regular" and "tropical" forests are identical, with the exceptions of resources, so the "delineation" between the two are mostly for "look-and-feel" and some resource play-balancing; conifer forests, to the best of my knowledge, were far more limited than today.

Also, I was going to / would like to add areas of Antarctica which were indeed ice-free,

I like knowing about other incarnations of our Earth (BTW, whenever I place Tundra tiles on a map, I never forget that it was you who explained to me the reasoning re: Tundra / Grassland tiles.)

( the compliment/acknowledgement is to timerover51)

On playability - my thanks to Yoda Power (amongst others) for explaining & demonstrating the necessity of sacrificing accuracy (a little) for playability. It is worth looking for places where you can add variety to any large swathes of similar terrain such as forests. Even just single tile meadows, hills, or whatever can make for more enjoyable play as well as increase aesthetic value.

In another thread we discussed some of Chris Wayan's work. He has made relief globes as well maps of several alternate Earths. Then extrapolated changes down to the level of alternate lines of evolution & cultural developments based on those geographies. While most of his work posits changes in axial tilt rather than differences in Ice Ages, his imaginative speculation based in science still has a lot to offer about how changes in sea level affect geography, local climates, & ecologies. Here's a brief ample from his detailed explanation of Seapole's geography:

Chris Wayan
With almost none of the world's water locked up in thick ice, sea levels are 90 meters higher (nearly 300'). The weight of that extra water on coasts and continental shelves presses them down, just as glaciers during our Ice Ages depress the land beneath them. This slightly exaggerates the coastal flooding (though continental interiors bulge up a bit to compensate)--the result is an effective sea level rise in most places of about 100 meters (328').

 

[timerover51]

( the compliment/acknowledgement is to timerover51)

On playability - my thanks to Yoda Power (amongst others) for explaining & demonstrating the necessity of sacrificing accuracy (a little) for playability. It is worth looking for places where you can add variety to any large swathes of similar terrain such as forests. Even just single tile meadows, hills, or whatever can make for more enjoyable play as well as increase aesthetic value.

In another thread we discussed some of Chris Wayan's work. He has made relief globes as well maps of several alternate Earths. Then extrapolated changes down to the level of alternate lines of evolution & cultural developments based on those geographies. While most of his work posits changes in axial tilt rather than differences in Ice Ages, his imaginative speculation based in science still has a lot to offer about how changes in sea level affect geography, local climates, & ecologies. Here's a brief ample from his detailed explanation of Seapole's geography:

Yes, look at that map. The Atlantic Ocean is truncated at about 30 Degree North Latitude. Then kindly take a look at the current ocean currents patterns in the Atlantic. Now, kindly explain how you are going to get any significant warm water Gulf Stream flowing to what would be the western coast of the rotated South America. Answer, you are not. What you are going to get is a circular current flow from east to west somewhere around 30 Degree north, hitting the eastern coast of the rotated Africa, which in that portion is going to be an elevated plateau region, then swinging north with limited warm to the North Atlantic Ocean. The northern areas of rotated South America are going to be pretty cold, while the northern areas of the rotated Africa, which would include the Ethiopian Highlands, are going to be also pretty cold.

Description of South Africa from the CIA World Factbook:

vast interior plateau rimmed by rugged hills and narrow coastal plain

Temperature drops 1 Degree Celsius or 1.8 Degree Fahrenheit for every 1,000 feet in altitude. The same thing applies to the rotated Andes Mountain Chain, most of which is at or above 30 Degree North. Some of those mountains on or near the Equator have glaciers on them, now. Put them at 30 Degrees North or higher, and you are going to have a lot more glaciers.

Now, a lot of the moisture that hits the Midwest originates in the Gulf of Mexico. With the rotation of Africa and Europe, you have no Gulf of Mexico or Caribbean Sea. Given the elevation of Africa and no good source of moisture, a lot of the eastern portion of the Rotated Africa is going to be semi-arid to arid. The nice cold current flowing down the eastern coast of rotated South America is going to have about the same effect as the cold California Current has on southern California and the Baja Peninsula, while the Andes Range is going to screen it off from any moisture coming from the limited easterly winds at about 30 Degree North.

Then there are the Coastal Range, the Sierra Nevada, and the Rockies in rotated North America blocking the easterly wind pattern south of the Equator. Real good rain shadow effects there, and all of Asia sitting out to the west with limited sources of moisture.

Have you even bothered to look at current ocean current patterns and also wind patterns? Did the author of this bother to do so?

I will not even get into the problems posed by his rotation with respect to plate tectonics, and the location of volcanic chains and deep ocean rifts. It is safe to say that there would be massive changes.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'll see what I can do tomorrow about working with polar caps & Snoopy's Greener terrain.

As I described in detail in the PM, and as confirmed by Quintillus, trying to get the polar-caps pcx to match the map tile for tile is a dead-end.

In the process I remembered that there have been problems with strange & confusing reflections of map tiles in the polar part of the in-game map when the caps are turned off. So the consolation prize is an all-black polar-cap graphic.

Change the name (just remove the all-caps at the beginning). Put the file inside your art/terrain folder. Keep the polar caps toggled on. You end up with what looks like the caps are turned off.