Anno Domini - a full mod from R8XFT

[Pounder]

@ R8XFT

Don't forget that Egypt is in Africa.

 

[Xen]

Maybe for Modern era...lol

thats the beauty of muammar- thier is a costume for all ages (of course, in almostr all of his garbs, he still has his stylish 80's porno aviator sunglasses- but to have them in every era woudl just be awesome )

 

[onedreamer]

No, the Indus Civilization was the Harappans.

Edit: IOW, the civilization you described is both the Harappans and the Indus Civilization.

yeah it's right, I remembered wrong

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

@ R8XFT

Don't forget that Egypt is in Africa.

I hadn't forgotten, but it doesn't suit the African culture group buildings IMHO, which is why I'd put it in the Middle-East section.

 

[Hrafnkell]

I hadn't forgotten, but it doesn't suit the African culture group buildings IMHO, which is why I'd put it in the Middle-East section.

I think that is an excellent decision. It is a shame we are limited to five flavors. So often a race deserves a flavor of its own - the Egyptians among them. The ancient Egyptians saw themselves as a separate race. To be Egyptian you had to live along the Nile or Delta - between the sea and the First Cataract, as well as behave as an Egyptian in adopting Egyptian culture, and this sets them apart from the rest of Africa as well. The MidEast connection is also supported by their inclusion among the bronze age superpowers and the fact that as a kingdom they expended so much effort in establishing and maintaining a Levantine hegemony, which shows a Middle Eastern orientation as well.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Although Middle Eastern is the best fit in Civ3, I believe the Egyptians were unique in culture and artecturial style to separate them from the Mesopatamians and other groups in the region. Civ3's 5 culture groups limit is a real crutch..it really doesn't do the game any good...and I hope its gone in Civ4..

 

[Hrafnkell]

Although Middle Eastern is the best fit in Civ3, I believe the Egyptians were unique in culture and artecturial style to separate them from the Mesopatamians and other groups in the region. Civ3's 5 culture groups limit is a real crutch..it really doesn't do the game any good...and I hope its gone in Civ4..

You said it. I hope they fix that little limitation too. It's crazy to try to fit every culture into 5 groups.

 

[mitsho]

they just might raise it to 6 or 7 that's more realistic. And I myself like the culture groups. It adds flavour to the game, and yes, the Egyptians aren't really good mediterranneans... but as well, therefore, more culture groups. But it doesn't have to be historical, does it?

mfG mitsho

 

[Xen]

*remember- cleopatra herself is from th ePtolomaic dynasty of egyptian rukers, who were greeks; durign thier ruke egypt was a firmlly med sea state, that combined bpth classic egyptian, and middle easter elemts- as well as a very heavy shadeing of Greek culture, most obvious in the city of Alexandria

 

[Hrafnkell]

they just might raise it to 6 or 7 that's more realistic. And I myself like the culture groups. It adds flavour to the game, and yes, the Egyptians aren't really good mediterranneans... but as well, therefore, more culture groups. But it doesn't have to be historical, does it?

mfG mitsho

I like the culture groups too and the more the better, and yes, sometimes historical is handy when you want a historical scenario or mod.

And you're right Xen, except that the Ptolemies were Macedonian, not Greek. The native language of Macedonia was not Greek but Macedonian; most of the Macedonian rank and file didn't speak a word of Greek. For instance, at the trial of Philotas we find the following:

Philotas was accused of plotting against Alexander and brought before the Macedonian army to plead his case. Alexander asked Philotas if he, Philotas, was going to use his native tongue, the Macedonian language to speak to the army. Philotas said that he would use Greek, to which Alexander retorted:

"Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language"

All the ancient authors - Arrian, Plutarch, etc., refer to the Greeks and Macedonians as separate peoples. But you're right in that under the Ptolemies, Egypt was a Mediterranean state. The Ptolemies had no interest in Africa outside of the gold and elephants they could bring up from the south. Geopolitically they were 100% oriented towards the Levantine coast and control of the Mediterranean.

 

[Snorken]

the lybian leaderhead is much better then the amazons

Blasphemer, do not mock the Amazons! The Amazon leaderhead is much nicer!

 

[Xen]

And you're right Xen, except that the Ptolemies were Macedonian, not Greek. The native language of Macedonia was not Greek but Macedonian; most of the Macedonian rank and file didn't speak a word of Greek. For instance, at the trial of Philotas we find the following:

Philotas was accused of plotting against Alexander and brought before the Macedonian army to plead his case. Alexander asked Philotas if he, Philotas, was going to use his native tongue, the Macedonian language to speak to the army. Philotas said that he would use Greek, to which Alexander retorted:

"Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language"

All the ancient authors - Arrian, Plutarch, etc., refer to the Greeks and Macedonians as separate peoples. But you're right in that under the Ptolemies, Egypt was a Mediterranean state. The Ptolemies had no interest in Africa outside of the gold and elephants they could bring up from the south. Geopolitically they were 100% oriented towards the Levantine coast and control of the Mediterranean.

for all intents and ourposes, in the civ3 world, they are the same damn thing; thier languages may be different, but they were closelly related, and I hgave a feelign ALexander only used his argument because it fit his purposes, but otherwise woudl not have cared who used greek or macedonian, as he himself was so concerned in taking up Greek causes, and winning favor and good image in the eyes of the greeks.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Sigh....debates are pointless...what do they prove other than that people disagree with each other...in the end everyone walks away hating all the people who disagreed with them, and nobody benefits from that. At least, thats my expierence for the most part.

Xen is correct though, Post Ptolamey Egypt WAS Meditarrean. The purely Egyptian Egyptians perished when Alexander liberated Egypt from the Persians.

But yes, they deserve their own culture group, and yes...Cleopatra should get the axe.

 

[Xen]

people in debates never change thier opinions- one wins when they have created an argument that cannot be activlly disproved by the other- but the debate itself is to change th eopinion fo the other; it is to change the opinion of allt he silent witnesses, a battle for influence, you might say, over whos opinion is more widespread, and regarded in the forums, and thus in the world at large, as people spread what they have learned fromt he forums in thie rlives- I've posted here, and in other forums, for a long time, and lurked here even longer; and that is the rathe rinfallable conclusion that I have have come to, after so many thousands of posts, of ideas and comments put upon this forum alone.

 

[TopGun]

A hell of a teaser! Looks like it will be a blast to play this mod!

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

people in debates never change thier opinions- one wins when they have created an argument that cannot be activlly disproved by the other- but the debate itself is to change th eopinion fo the other; it is to change the opinion of allt he silent witnesses, a battle for influence, you might say, over whos opinion is more widespread, and regarded in the forums, and thus in the world at large, as people spread what they have learned fromt he forums in thie rlives- I've posted here, and in other forums, for a long time, and lurked here even longer; and that is the rathe rinfallable conclusion that I have have come to, after so many thousands of posts, of ideas and comments put upon this forum alone.

Your view is the wiser one Xen, I must admit. Theres always those who can be persuided, who knows, even if they don't show it in a post online, its a good bet you at least make them think..sometimes thats all you can do, and sometimes, sometimes thats the beginning of something greater..

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Sigh....debates are pointless....

...and irritate me when they take over my threads

But yes, they deserve their own culture group

They do deserve their own culture group, but alas, as we all know, it won't happen - unless I reduce the number of civs in the mod to 5 .

and yes...Cleopatra should get the axe.

How could you say that? She's one of my favourite leaderheads in this set and will be the first to become era-specific. Though, I'm sure you're not talking about the leaderhead, but Cleopatra herself. The reason I did Cleopatra are that, firstly, I thought I could do a better Cleopatra than I could do Rameses; secondly, this mod was born following several requests for leaderheads by pm of ancient era leaderheads, amongst them an era-specific Cleopatra. Pericles, Alexander, a new Roman leader (which has turned out to be Trajan) and Vercingetorix were amongst the other requests and I had also wanted to update Teuta, Boudicca (who is my personal favourite ) and Hector amongst others.

Cleopatra definately stays, whether historically she was the best leader or not. Graphically, she's the best Egyptian leader I can do, so that gives her preference over the likes of Rameses !!

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I was talking about the main game...thousands of years of Pharoahnic history and the best Firaxis could do is put the one person who destroyed Ancient Egypt in charge..

 

[Plotinus]

...and irritate me when they take over my threads

Ah, but on the other hand, they keep the thread near the top of the forum, don't they?

I agree that having Cleopatra as a leader was perhaps not the best choice for the original game, given that it might make more sense to have a great Pharaoh of Egypt's ancient glory days - as in Civ1, which had Rameses II - rather than someone who ruled it after Egypt had, in Civ terms, ceased to exist. On the other hand, ask someone to name a ruler of ancient Egypt, and chances are they will name Cleopatra. Everyone's heard of her. So it does sort of make sense. And I liked the original LH for her - I thought she was pretty. Not that I don't like R8XFT's new one as well, naturally. It does look rather more exotic.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I was talking about the main game...thousands of years of Pharoahnic history and the best Firaxis could do is put the one person who destroyed Ancient Egypt in charge..

Fireaxis wanted to make sure there were some female leaders in the mix. Cleopatra is argueably the most known female leader of ancient times to a mixed, average audience. Please note that I'm talking about most known leader, not best or most suitable.