Another Amurite Enhancement

hbar · Aug 7, 2009

So I'm about to be unemployed for a bit, and I am hoping to put together a small Amurite modmod in my downtime. I know some python, but I've never modded before. I was hoping I could post my ideas here and have those smarter then me point out potential pitfalls before I start mangling code. I'd also really like to make this modular, but I don't know enough about the limitations to know if that's possible.

Idea: The Amurite's strength, wizards en masse, is the only mechanic (that I know of) that requires the expenditure of large sums of gold. I propose an ability that allows Amurite adepts to upgrade to wizards with no cost, but a delay and a risk to the adept. Adepts can still be upgraded normally.

Ability: Trials of the Cave - requires an adept of level 4, must be in a city with a Cave of the Ancestors, and no other adept undergoing the trials in that city. Ability has a 4-turn casting delay with a 25% chance of killing the caster, and a 10% chance to apply various promotions based on the mana owned by the civ. If successfully cast, the adept is promoted to a Wizard for no cost.

Spoiler Mana Effects :

Note that the chance for promotion does not stack with multiple sources of one mana. I like that the Amurites are encouraged to amass multiple mana types, and I want to reinforce that. I'm also forgetting one type of mana and am missing ideas for several promotions, so feel free to help out.

Once this is working, I'd also like to give the Amurites a UB "Wizards Arena" where two wizards enter and do battle, and the victor is promoted to Archmage. A similar system would be in place for free promos, some more powerful (eg. Life could give the one-shot Immortal promo) and some risky (entropy could give Withered). I'm leaning towards giving the loser a 50% chance of dying, otherwise losing most of its health and gaining some negative promos to simulate the adverse effects of magical battles. I'd also like to have the battle give +1

for 10 (20?) turns (people love fireworks!) Again, Wizards would be able to upgrade to Archmages normally too.

Comments?

Pohlmann · Aug 7, 2009

upgrading adepts to mages is really really cheap. 25 gold is almost for free.

pop 1 graveyard and u can upgrade 3-6 adepts.

but i like the arenaidea. let a mage win 3 fights and then promote him to archmage for free and without tech requirements.

or make it a world unit. the unit is promoted to a new sort of mage which grants him channeling 3 so it is like an archmage

hbar · Aug 7, 2009

I'm pretty sure its much more than 25 gold (on normal speed). I'll check, but in my last game it was something like 100-150 per wizard.

About the world unit, I'm also thinking of making a UU Caswallan for them, can only have one at a time and has to be created through battle. I'll have to collect all of Magister's many posts on the idea to make sure I get the lore and abilities right.

Brokenbone · Aug 7, 2009

That "Trials of the Cave" sounds cool, possibly even as the ONLY way to become a Wizard (if that's what fits the lore?) Maybe the chance of getting some interesting promotions, whether the ones you listed or not, would help compensate for the lack of ability to do "field upgrades" and the lack of guaranteed survival.

Still, I'm used to playing Amurite games where Adepts are virtually ready to become Wizards as soon as they're made, if the right civics are in place and you have lots of mana to juice up the Cave of Ancestor's building (1xp per mana I think?).

Again, neat seed for an idea there.

Darksaber1 · Aug 7, 2009

Free upkeep promotian is "Free Unit" promotian.

WarKirby · Aug 7, 2009

My comment/suggestion

go Modular!
Since modules can be used with any other modmods, or modules, it means people don't have to sacrifice anything to play yours, and it means you don't have to maintain or keep it updated.

Also, if python is needed, have a look through the Food Supply thread. It seems that python in modules may just be possible after all, though it's relatively untested.

Creating a "full" modmod, like FFPlus, will give the most freedom and flexibility on your part, but the end user has less flexibility as they'd have to use it instead of, not as well as, base FF. And you'd have to maintain such a thing with each new patch we release or it becomes obsolete in short order. There is also the minor issue that complete mods need their own folder, and their own copy of our FPK. Which means tey're going to use up an extra 500 MB of hard drive space or so. Maybe not a concern for everyone, but drivespace isn't an unlimited resource.

tl;dr, do it in a module, for less work on your part, and more people playing it.

odalrick · Aug 7, 2009

hbar said:
Ability: Trials of the Cave - requires an adept of level 4, must be in a city with a Cave of the Ancestors, and no other adept undergoing the trials in that city. Ability has a 4-turn casting delay with a 25% chance of killing the caster, and a 10% chance to apply various promotions based on the mana owned by the civ. If successfully cast, the adept is promoted to a Wizard for no cost.

So instead of paying 65 gold you have the option of paying .25*90 :hammers:

= 22.5

= 45

. Slightly cheaper.

I'd go with 10% chance of death and 40% chance of a random injury along the lines of (one of) Weak, Withered, Game Leg (+1 terrain move cost), One Arm (+10 % miscast) et cetera.

Spoiler Mana Effects :

Neat idea, though it will be interesting to see what Magister Cultuum has to say about amurite wizards duking it out on the street of Cervedes to prove they have what it takes to become archmages.

readercolin · Aug 7, 2009

hmm... if it works out, I might steal it for my Amurite Enhancement that I'm doing for regular FFH.

As for mana effects, a different idea is to buff them in such a way as it further enhances their combat abilities. This isn't a problem in regular FFH, as free xp gained through channeling goes on forever. However, in FF, free xp is capped at 17 for channeling 1, 20 for channeling 2, and 24 for channeling 3. This means that a wizard actually has to kill something in order to move up to the ranks of archmage. The best effect would probably therefore be something that grants them combat power, or something special. Alternatively, you could grant them a random lvl 2 spell for each sphere known, and perhaps put in the possibility for a random level 3 spell.

Spoiler :

Another thing you could do is grant xp for going through the trials. Maybe allow wizards to upgrade to sorcerers if they go through the trials again (10 to 25% chance to survive, but provides a strength 6 unit with channeling 3, and this time runs a 50% chance to get the various promotions). The downside would be that they would then be unable to upgrade to battlemages (is that FF or FF+? strength 6 plus can take metal promotions). Maybe only allow this trial once they've reached arcane lore. No unit cap. (for where I got the idea from, look for an old FF modmod - Sephi's Era and Better AI - if you were to implement those kinds of sorcerers, it would be awsome... hmm... maybe I should implement them in mine...)

A last idea would be to allow regular units to go through the trials. Say a 25% chance of surviving, but if they do they come out with the promotions and channeling level 2 (with channeling 2, they can learn lvl 2 spells once govornnan arrives). Firebows would still be special because they don't need to run the trials to get channeling 2.

-Colin

hbar · Aug 7, 2009

Thanks for the rapid feedback. I can't get started writing code until Monday, but two years of failing CS classes has taught me to plan first, write code later.

So instead of paying 65 gold you have the option of paying .25*90 = 22.5 = 45. Slightly cheaper.

I'd go with 10% chance of death and 40% chance of a random injury along the lines of (one of) Weak, Withered, Game Leg (+1 terrain move cost), One Arm (+10 % miscast) et cetera.

The numbers are definitely going to be adjusted. I'm not sure if I want a bad result on the adept->wizard upgrade, because I want it to be a Really Good Thing (because the Amurites lack one that early). The mage -> archmage will have some Bads and BigBads, but there will be some Really Goods too (like Immortality and Flying).

Neat idea, though it will be interesting to see what Magister Cultuum has to say about amurite wizards duking it out on the street of Cervedes to prove they have what it takes to become archmages.

Hence the Unique Building, Wizard's Arena. They would only spill into the streets during a really heated duel. I might also have it increase the passive XP rate and/or cap as well.

As for mana effects, a different idea is to buff them in such a way as it further enhances their combat abilities. This isn't a problem in regular FFH, as free xp gained through channeling goes on forever. However, in FF, free xp is capped at 17 for channeling 1, 20 for channeling 2, and 24 for channeling 3. This means that a wizard actually has to kill something in order to move up to the ranks of archmage.

Really? Why on earth would they have done this? (I never once got 050 to work on my computer, so I'm a bit behind). Is this also for passive XP? If that really is the case, I'll add in some more combat-style promos or just remove that cap.

A last idea would be to allow regular units to go through the trials. Say a 25% chance of surviving, but if they do they come out with the promotions and channeling level 2 (with channeling 2, they can learn lvl 2 spells once govornnan arrives). Firebows would still be special because they don't need to run the trials to get channeling 2.

This is interesting; I may implement this after I get the base working. It fits nicely with the idea that every Amurite citizen has some latent magical talent, although I'm sure it could be abused.

I don't want to be giving out Channeling III before Strength of Will - too powerful, too soon. This may be a modmod, but I want to retain some semblance of balance

xienwolf · Aug 7, 2009

I think the new caps were mostly because your cap gets enhanced by other means besides channeling, and with JUST channeling you are NEVER going to reach those caps, so why bother making them higher?

MagisterCultuum · Aug 7, 2009

My version of the Cave Trials:

Code:

def spellCaveTrials(caster):
	if caster.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CASWALLAWN')):
		CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("The Caswallawn has already passed every trial; there is nothing left for the Cave to teach him.", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Caveofancestors.dds',ColorTypes(8),caster.getX(),caster.getY(),True,True)
	else:
		if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10, "Cave Trials") < 8:
			caster.changeFreePromotionPick(1)
			CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("Your unit has passed this phase of the trials, and emerged more skilled than before.", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Caveofancestors.dds',ColorTypes(8),caster.getX(),caster.getY(),True,True)
			
			if caster.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CHANNELING3')) and CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10, "Arena Battle") < 2:
				for pUnit in (PyPlayer(caster.getOwner())).getUnitList():
					if pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CHANNELING3')) and pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT'):
						if caster.getLevel() > pUnit.getLevel():
							if pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CASWALLAWN')):
								pUnit.kill(True, PlayerTypes.NO_PLAYER)
								CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("The Old Caswallawn has been slain in Arcane Combat", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Caveofancestors.dds',ColorTypes(7),caster.getX(),caster.getY(),True,True)
						else:
							break
						caster.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CASWALLAWN'), True)
						CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("This unit has passed every trial, and earned the title Caswallawn", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Caveofancestors.dds',ColorTypes(7),caster.getX(),caster.getY(),True,True)
		else:
			CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("When the illusions passed, the courpse of the trial candidate was found; it would seem he overestimated his abilities.", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Caveofancestors.dds',ColorTypes(7),caster.getX(),caster.getY(),True,True)
			caster.kill(True, PlayerTypes.NO_PLAYER)

WarKirby · Aug 7, 2009

hbar said:
I don't want to be giving out Channeling III before Strength of Will - too powerful, too soon. This may be a modmod, but I want to retain some semblance of balance

Gibbon Goetia would like a word with you.
Oh, Hemah, Corlindale and Govannon too.

hbar · Aug 7, 2009

If you look carefully, there is something about those 5 4 units that is different from regular Wizards :rolleyes:

re: XP caps - the numbers quoted (17, 20, 24), are they total or additional XP? If its additional XP, then I have no problem with it (In fact, I probably don't have a problem with it since I haven't noticed it yet)

Also, I asked in the Food Supply thread where Odalrick originally posted it and no one answered: in the XML for this (hopefully modular) spell, I can have this line

Code:

<PyResult>__import__('hmod').spellCaveTrials(pCaster)</PyResult>

and it will be able to do what I am planning?

xienwolf · Aug 7, 2009

As long as you have added hmod.py to the Python/entrypoints folder I think that would work.

The XP caps are for current value of XP. Once the caster has more than that number he stops gaining free XP through the promotion.

darkarrow56 · Aug 7, 2009

mind i think you can add an promotion that give the unit 2percent chance to convert a unit death make them resistant to dark magic creation maybe make like a something similair to a reborn for more pop force give a defensive ability to have a chance to push a light unit like scouts or assasins for a more harder to hit with an assasin mage enchantment maybe give a plus 10 percent to strength units in a stack with the unit ??? a random choice of one the civ doesn't have just my thoughts would be nice since amurites should be revolving around mages as much as dwarfs do with siege

darkarrow56 · Aug 7, 2009

hbar said:
If you look carefully, there is something about those 5 4 units that is different from regular Wizards

re: XP caps - the numbers quoted (17, 20, 24), are they total or additional XP? If its additional XP, then I have no problem with it (In fact, I probably don't have a problem with it since I haven't noticed it yet)

Also, I asked in the Food Supply thread where Odalrick originally posted it and no one answered: in the XML for this (hopefully modular) spell, I can have this line

Code:

<PyResult>__import__('hmod').spellCaveTrials(pCaster)</PyResult>

and it will be able to do what I am planning?

if you look at the balseralphs arena ability you should be able there quite similair

odalrick · Aug 7, 2009

hbar said:
The numbers are definitely going to be adjusted. I'm not sure if I want a bad result on the adept->wizard upgrade, because I want it to be a Really Good Thing (because the Amurites lack one that early). The mage -> archmage will have some Bads and BigBads, but there will be some Really Goods too (like Immortality and Flying).

Bad results on adept -> wizard serves two purposes. First cut down on the mortality, with bad results you can have fewer deaths.

Secondly, show that the trials are dangerous. Sure, death is pretty fatal, but two turns later you've forgotten you ever had a an adept. With minor injuries you'll be reminded every time you select a one eyed mage.

hbar said:
Really? Why on earth would they have done this? (I never once got 050 to work on my computer, so I'm a bit behind). Is this also for passive XP? If that really is the case, I'll add in some more combat-style promos or just remove that cap.

There's always been a cap. The current caps and rates we introduced along with centenial xp.

I haven't cruched the numbers since the xp-rate gains were added to first level spells, but I think the basis system is still the same. Essentially, level 4 is achievable in reasonable time, level 5 takes a long time and level 6 and beyond are combat experience only. This is makes any caps imposed by promotions pointless.

MagisterCultuum said:
My version of the Cave Trials:

Short version, 80% chance for a free promotion, otherwise death. For Channeling III units it can also kill the Caswallawn, if they meet the requirements. Correct?

xienwolf said:
As long as you have added hmod.py to the Python/entrypoints folder I think that would work.

Anywhere CivIV can find it is good, probably any sub-folder in Assets/Python.

It would be nice if we could put the python modules along with the rest of the module, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. As long as we use sane names for our python modules that shouldn't be an issue, though.

MagisterCultuum · Aug 7, 2009

Yes, but you left off that if it kills the Caswallawn it become the new one.

I could have sworn that I had written it to take the unit's level into account, so the trials become harder for more advanced units, and so that a unit challenging the Caswallawn unsucesfully would also die. It does not appear that I did that, however.

------------

I just got to thinking that in FF it could be interesting if their Wizards, Archmages, or at least the Caswallawn could act as Great Commanders in charge of the lower level casters under their command and giving them some special bonuses from this tutelage.

readercolin · Aug 8, 2009

I was actually thinking about making it so that there was the wizard and his "assistants" and with a full set they could cast greater spells.

Ex. Adepts wander around doing adept things. However, a wizard can have multiple adept (maybe also allow wizard) assistants. These wizards would get a promotion for each assistant under them, and once they have x number it would allow other spells. So a wizard with 3 assistants might manage to make a permanent specter after 3 turns casting. Or a wizard with 5 assistants might manage to make a greater summon (aka, any t3 summon). Then an archmage can lead several wizards (each with several assistants of their own), and an archmage with 4 assistants (each with 5 wizards under them) would allow the archmage to cast permanent t3 summons, or maybe allow some advanced summons that only they can have. For ideas, take them from arcane mastery. Maybe find some way that makes more assistants give more power to the summons.

This is actually something that I was thinking about doing myself once I got mine working. However if someone else wants to snatch the idea and run with it, go right ahead.

-Colin

WarKirby · Aug 8, 2009

Amurites having archmages as commanders sounds like an excellent idea.

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