Another Cold Rehash, er The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it (SPOILERS).

Perfection said:
I mean to me, it's sort of like, now where the hell do we go? I mean how are we supposed to have epic space battles if one side doesn't have any ships? Is the Millennium Falcon going to bump into the ship fairy? Is there some faction that got left out. What gives?
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I'm pretty sure they're going to time-skip for episode 9.
 
Maybe all that talk about the arms dealers from Canto Bight who were selling weapons to both sides was a set up for a plot in Episode 9 where the Resistance uses the Millennium Falcon to raid the factories of their old suppliers and steals a fleet of mostly-finished vessels just before the First Order can arrive to take possession of their new armada?
 
hobbsyoyo said:
I'm not complaining that nothing happens. I'm complaining that the plot sucked. That's not the same thing.
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Well, your comment was that "I didn't realize nothing happened until after the movie ended." I was merely pointing out, as Sommer did in detail, that nothing happens in The Empire Strikes Back. The only consequential sequences of that entire movie are Luke training with Yoda, and the Vader/Luke lightsaber battle at the end. But you know why The Last Jedi is better than Empire? Because unlike in Empire, when the characters get sidetracked on their own secondary adventures in TLJ, it serves a purpose both in developing the characters, and in developing the plot. In Empire, you had entire sequences that were nothing more than special effects filler - including the opening 30 minutes or so of everyone trying to get off Hoth.

Obviously, if the heart of your complaint is simply that you don't like the plot, that's cool. But the plot did not suck. It was more geared towards character development than what we're used to in these movies, and I think that is probably why a lot of people didn't like it.
 
Synsensa said:
Why is "winning" the key point here? Their intent wasn't to win. They needed to destroy the mini-Starkiller cannon so that the gate wouldn't be turned into putty before their (assumed) reinforcements arrive. The walkers and fighters are superfluous to the goal.
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I didn't mean they would win the battle (poor choice of words on my part), I meant they would not be able to accomplish anything under any reasonable combat scenario. It was unbelievably stupid and I was right, they accomplished nothing but getting good guys killed. You can look at it like a heroic sacrifice if you want. I choose to see it as a massive blunder that shows how incompetent the Rebels are these days. It was also a bad homage to Empire
 
metalhead said:
Well, your comment was that "I didn't realize nothing happened until after the movie ended." I was merely pointing out, as Sommer did in detail, that nothing happens in The Empire Strikes Back. The only consequential sequences of that entire movie are Luke training with Yoda, and the Vader/Luke lightsaber battle at the end. But you know why The Last Jedi is better than Empire? Because unlike in Empire, when the characters get sidetracked on their own secondary adventures in TLJ, it serves a purpose both in developing the characters, and in developing the plot. In Empire, you had entire sequences that were nothing more than special effects filler - including the opening 30 minutes or so of everyone trying to get off Hoth.

Obviously, if the heart of your complaint is simply that you don't like the plot, that's cool. But the plot did not suck. It was more geared towards character development than what we're used to in these movies, and I think that is probably why a lot of people didn't like it.
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Dude I already said that "nothing happens" is not a complaint I have. I also already said that the pacing was excellent. You don't have to keep posting paragraphs to dispute something I'm not arguing.

Any comparisons you make to Empire or other SW films to convince me the plot doesn't suck only reinforces my belief. The plot sucked. I'm glad you liked it though
 
Takhisis said:
Yousa what?
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I'm sorry, but at this point, even a movie with Jar-Jar Binks blundering and prancing around for part of it that actually has a stronger plot and central characters who are more interesting or better portrayed than Disney's newer garbage. Raye is effectively a Disney Princess with Jedi powers, not a true Star Wars archetype, where the Jedi combined Wuxa and Arthurian elements, and it becoming a Jedi was never portrayed as being THAT easy (other then time elapsement - but there's obviously far more than that with Raye - to the level of "Mary-Sue" quality, in fact, and she seems to magically acquire mundane, non-Force-related skills suddenly out of nowhere too). In fact, Disney can't do Marvel Comics worth damn, either, and I dread to imagine how they'll butcher any 20th Century Fox intellectual properties they continue.
 
I can't believe no one else has issue with Ray crying in every dramatic scene.

And yeah her training was well...it was so non-existent I forgot for the most part that she even was training while on the island.
 
Being rigid, emotionless, dispassionate, force-using automatons ultimately made the Jedi weak and led to their downfall in the prequels. It's why they were unable to see what Anakin was going through. It's likely why Luke assumed failure when he sensed growing darkness in Ben.

Showing Rey as being able to express deep emotion and feel empathy for her "enemy" is to show that there will be a new path forward. A clean break from the old and ultimately ineffective methods of the past. Crying isn't a sign of weakness. In the context of these movies, it's to be taken as a strength.
 
metalhead said:
Being rigid, emotionless, dispassionate, force-using automatons ultimately made the Jedi weak and led to their downfall in the prequels. It's why they were unable to see what Anakin was going through. It's likely why Luke assumed failure when he sensed growing darkness in Ben.

Showing Rey as being able to express deep emotion and feel empathy for her "enemy" is to show that there will be a new path forward. A clean break from the old and ultimately ineffective methods of the past. Crying isn't a sign of weakness. In the context of these movies, it's to be taken as a strength.
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Although, strangely, in the Wuxa films (which Lucas quoted as an inspiration for the Jedi), the "good" martial artists ranged from stoic to jovial to downright comedic and many in-betweens, but didn't suppress their emotion unless previous tragedy from youth before training led to it (basically, the stoic ones). The "evil" martial artists were either conniving and manipulative, perpetually angry, or seemingly sociopathic in demeanor. I always admit I preferred the Wuxa model. That being said, in terms of emotion, behavior, and demeanor, Kailo Ren behaves like a spoiled toddler with immense power - one of the lamest villains I've seen in a LONG time (because of course, I don't judge villains entirely, or even mostly, by just their powers or outfit).
 
She wasn't displaying deep emotion. If she was I wouldn't object to it. To me she was crying because that's what princesses are supposed to do. I could think of no other logical explanation for it given her background.

I actually think Kylo is developing into less of an edgy whiny teen and more of a badass emporer. I liked his development in this film a lot. Rey's, not so much. She just cried a lot then became a master Jedi.
 
The whole point of those scenes, and the connection with Kylo, was to dredge up emotions about the fact that she was orphaned, with no memory or knowledge of her parents. She came to the island expecting to find such a connection in Luke. Not necessarily a literal familial connection, but a surrogate one from someone who understands better than anyone what she's going through, having such immense power and nobody to provide her any guidance about it. She anticipated it so much she was shaking when she held his lightsaber to him, and it's written all over her face. She was devastated when he took it and casually tossed it over his shoulder.

I dunno man, if you missed all of these things, I can see why you think the movie sucked. I think the character work was all very well done, and made perfect sense both in the confines of this movie and the last one, as well as the context of the larger span of all 8 "main" movies.
 
I'm sorry, really, it's just that a lot of the "anti" opinions I read have takes on various scenes and plot/character points that make it seem like I watched a completely different movie.
 
metalhead said:
The whole point of those scenes, and the connection with Kylo, was to dredge up emotions about the fact that she was orphaned, with no memory or knowledge of her parents. She came to the island expecting to find such a connection in Luke. Not necessarily a literal familial connection, but a surrogate one from someone who understands better than anyone what she's going through, having such immense power and nobody to provide her any guidance about it. She anticipated it so much she was shaking when she held his lightsaber to him, and it's written all over her face. She was devastated when he took it and casually tossed it over his shoulder.

I dunno man, if you missed all of these things, I can see why you think the movie sucked. I think the character work was all very well done, and made perfect sense both in the confines of this movie and the last one, as well as the context of the larger span of all 8 "main" movies.
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Perhaps I just keep forgetting this isn't Dr. Zhivago or Citizen Kane. But, even in the context of the six Star Wars numbered movies created directly by Lucas, and the two after, the whole mood, theme, motif, and way of presentation (outside of more advanced movie-made technology) seems to have changed NOTICEABLY, and it's in a way I don't really like. Maybe I'm an old Lucasfilm gronyard who grew up on 70's, 80's, and 90's movies and help but pick apart every movie I've watched in my head while watching them instead of sitting back and actually enjoying them in the last almost 20 years - I admit that might be part of the problem (maybe I should start one of those really mean and critical online movie critic blogs). But, there's also the fact that Disney has it's own take on movie-making and intellectual properties in general. And the Disney Princess shtick is only part of it. They've ruined Marvel Comics too by alloying certainly Disney expectations there (and the Princess one is almost non-existent in that part of their endeavours, too boot). I wish I could explain this in more coherently worded way, but, it comes down to Disney movie-making principles and mindsets do not do justice to Star Wars.
 
metalhead said:
I'm sorry, really, it's just that a lot of the "anti" opinions I read have takes on various scenes and plot/character points that make it seem like I watched a completely different movie.
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You see the sum of the whole as more than the sum of the parts. I do not. We saw the same movie and took away very different things from it.
 
Sommerswerd said:
The salt skimmers were awesome. The plan was to blow up the battering-ram cannon by shooting it with their ship-board blasters. Finn explicitly says "guns are hot" so depite being rusty and old, the skimmers are armed. Again, people missed it, but it was there. I noticed it on the second viewing... the skimmers weren't just blindly flying at the enemy, they were armed with lazer blasters, and they had a reasonable belief that they would be able to take the cannon out.
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From what I've seen posted elsewhere and from what I've heard from friends, a lot of people missed this.

From my POV, as I was watching the movie, some of the stuff the main characters were doing throughout the movie was "alright let's go do some stuff!". Basically "Ok we're on screen now, let's figure out something to do". In hindsight some of these scenes now redeem themselves. That is a sign of bad writing though, that the audience is not locked into the core motivations from at least some of the characters. At the time of the scene in question, I was like "What, they're just going to fly at the bad guy army and the big cannon without weapons? That seems weird but whatever, it's star wars, I'm sure they have some sort of a plan oooohh look at the pretty colours". And right after the scene was over I was like "Wait, they didn't really have any plan other than 'fly at the cannon'?" But then I was right away distracted by something new that was going on which required my attention. This dynamic repeated itself several times throughout the movie, where I would question and/or not understand the motivations of some of the main characters.

Overall the ride was entertaining and I did enjoy it, but it seems like they could do more to paint a better picture of the setting and the motivations of the characters in our minds.
 
I always knew the salt speeders were armed. That was never in doubt for me. They were just woefully incapable to the point that it made me incredulous. The problem is that the plan of attack made no sense. There is a reason the USAF calls mass tank columns "target practice". You do not win a fight against flyers when you are stuck to the ground.

Also if I had a dime for everytime someone in this thread put words in my mouth I'd be getting rich.
 
hobbsyoyo said:
Also if I had a dime for everytime someone in this thread put words in my mouth I'd be getting rich.
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hobbsyoyo said:
You see the sum of the whole as more than the sum of the parts. I do not. We saw the same movie and took away very different things from it.
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What does this mean, then, so as to avoid putting words in your mouth? Does each part of the movie need to stand on its own, apart from the greater context?
 
Hobbs can of course speak for himself, but the movie he saw sounds pretty much like the movie I saw.

For me, the Poe and Finn co-plots lacked this:

Owen Glyndwr said:
If you picture that line people draw when describing a basic three-act story arc: with a steady build-up, a slight dip at the low followed by a rapid spike at the climax then a steady denouement; a well-paced film encapsulates that line flawlessly
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Clearly stated objective, measurable progress toward that objective, obstacles, obstacles overcome, resolution of objective.

What I experienced instead was muddy story telling. I'm searching for a guy with a certain insignia, I'm marked by security guards, but I take a little time to watch a horse race through binoculars, I do get arrested but a guy who can break me out and take the place of my objective falls in my lap, and so do some cute creatures who can spirit me away. It's all fits and starts, no progression. No progression driven by characters and their personalities interacting with other characters and their personalities.

Ditto Poe. My people are under ongoing immediate threat of destruction. I don't like how my leader is handling that. I'll mutiny. Oh, she's a good person after all. Ok, let's just call this a mulligan.

The storytelling felt to me disjointed, muddy, frenetic, unsequential.

I mean to watch it again with the eyes of you people who found it more satisfactory, but all of Sommer's wonderful expositions of the meanings of this or that plot thread, this or that connection are ex post facto interpretations imposed on the material rather that what I experienced while simply trying to follow the plot developments while watching the movie in the theater.

By the way, though, metal, I've come to understand what you were saying when you said you feel as though the Force is being treated in less religious terms. Through the other movies, we have the equivalent of two monastic orders--the Fransithcans and the Jeduites--with robes and cowls and hoods and dogmas and acolytes: all the trappings of the Force being a religion. There is much less of this here, you're right. But the same stark, black-and-white morality still subtends the treatment of the good side and bad side of the force. That's what I didn't think significantly changed, and why I don't find terribly more ambiguity in anything in this movie. Kylo has slipped into the dark side of the force and needs to be redeemed by someone still in touch with the good side of the force.
 
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