Another SE immortal game

[baboon]

I noticed you started to run specialist early in different cities. How does that work out with the increased numer of GPP you need after a while? I'm always reluctant with having specialists in multiple cities, being afraid a lot of cities will have GPP but never produce a GP.

 

[Giaur]

@baboon:

If you know sth of computer programming, you can make simple program that emulates this stuff. I would write this, but I never play SE

 

[jihe]

At the beginning the more specialists you run the faster you get your GP's. You WILL get GP's from cities other than Great Library city. It's very flexible, if you see a city is close to giving you a GP but is just a turn or two behind your GP farm, then just starve that city and run less specialists in your GP farm for a couple of turns. Once your get your GS's (i.e. after Liberalism) GP's begin to lose power anyway, so you run specialists for research and money and don't worry about wasting GPP. In fact I usually leave Pacifism after that, it's a very expensive civic. The whole point is you should get as many GP's as EARLY as you can, and that means running scientists everywhere. No point wasting your trait and Pacifism.

Remeber GPP is a bonus effect (albeit a huge one) to your economy, you still need to self research and pay for troops with your specialists.

I noticed you started to run specialist early in different cities. How does that work out with the increased numer of GPP you need after a while? I'm always reluctant with having specialists in multiple cities, being afraid a lot of cities will have GPP but never produce a GP.

 

[UncleJJ]

I looked at the 1665 savegame and it is an interesting game. But I wonder if this sort of play is possible with a leader that is not philosophical and spiritual, which means you have to use Ghandi. What other leaders would you use in this way?

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I adjusted the research and culture sliders to see how much you were using commerce to fund your economy.

at 0% Research 0% culture
Beakers 385 Gold 452 so total beakers+ gold = 837

at 100% Research 0% culture
Beakers 692 Gold 133 so total beakers+ gold = 825

Difference in beakers = 307
Difference in gold = 319
So in round terms commerce is providing about 310 / 830 = 37% of total beakers and gold combined. I guess that makes it a borderline SE at best (in 1665) and more likely a HE.

 

[DaviddesJ]

So in round terms commerce is providing about 310 / 830 = 37% of total beakers and gold combined. I guess that makes it a borderline SE at best (in 1665) and more likely a HE.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. Your definition of SE is that you have to refuse to work tiles that have any commerce on them?

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Thanks for doing this thread. I am playing my own game with Ghandi and attempting to run as complete an SE as I can. As a long time CE player and occasional HE player I find this quite a challenge. One difficulty is sequencing tech research properly so as to use the GS's to best advantage. Could you summarize your stategy for how best to do this?

 

[Binky123]

Here are some tips for scientists on the liberalism line, which is what many people seem to use them for:

- Your first scientist will most likely be able to pop maths, depending how early you get him. I usually don't do this and wait for a better tech pop, or settle occasionally. If you are philisophical you can settle more since you will be generating more scientists. I really only settle when my capital is going to be a research powerhouse.

Once you research meditation + (code of laws OR drama), then you can pop philosphy. This is a great tech because it gives you pacifism (more GPP), and taoism if you get it first.

After philosphy, civil service works well. I'm not saying you research the techs in this order, I'm just telling you which techs you need to research in order to get the next tech that can be popped. After civil service you can either pop paper, or research it manually.

After paper is education. Education takes 2 scientists but it's worth it since you get to liberalism fast.

Next: If you haven't researched machinery, but you have both metal casting and compass... your scientist will research liberalism. This is very handy, since with enough scientists you can effectively pop your way from paper --> liberalism and get the free tech.

This is the general path towards liberalism, and afterwards it doesn't matter quite as much in my opinion. If you don't have the prerequisites for printing press, scientists after liberalism can bulb chemistry (assuming you have gunpowder). I think in acid's demogame, he took gunpowder from liberalism, then popped chemistry and ran over the world with grendiers.

There's a complete list of the great people tech preferences here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

Hope this helps

 

[UncleJJ]

Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. Your definition of SE is that you have to refuse to work tiles that have any commerce on them?

Not my definition but it is for some people. I am one of those that believes cottages and other sources of commerce are fine and work well with specialists. I merely pointed out that 37% of income was coming from commerce.

 

[jihe]

I really don't know what you're talking about. The difference between SE and CE is how much you use specialists to fund *research*. You always need commerce for city and troop upkeep.

A lot (if not all) of the 310 commence has to go to city and troops upkeep and does not contribute to science. I had been running at 0% science for a *long* time, most of the research was done by scientists. Of course you would always want to run the science slider as high as possible, but as I was saying I was running a deficit at 100% gold, and that was with merchants too.

Also in 1665 save the game is already won and you can set culture to 0, but during the war you simply have to run a high culture slider to combat WW, so a fair proportion of the commerce is also lost. You should look at earlier saves when the game was still to be won.

In fact late game I even ran free speech and worked all those nice towns near Athens, but really who cares when the game is already won?

If this is a HE then I don't really know what SE is. I think you are pretty SE if you never build a cottage.

Gandhi is without doubt the best for SE and that's the reason I use him. Any Philosophical leader works, I have also used this for Ramses, the strategy being Oracle for CoL. But war chariots feel so wrong when you can just run over 1-2 opponents before the AD years and take over a few holy cities for your obelisk GP. You do have slower GS but then you just have to manage them better, ie self researching Paper etc.

I looked at the 1665 savegame and it is an interesting game. But I wonder if this sort of play is possible with a leader that is not philosophical and spiritual, which means you have to use Ghandi. What other leaders would you use in this way?

-----------
I adjusted the research and culture sliders to see how much you were using commerce to fund your economy.

at 0% Research 0% culture
Beakers 385 Gold 452 so total beakers+ gold = 837

at 100% Research 0% culture
Beakers 692 Gold 133 so total beakers+ gold = 825

Difference in beakers = 307
Difference in gold = 319
So in round terms commerce is providing about 310 / 830 = 37% of total beakers and gold combined. I guess that makes it a borderline SE at best (in 1665) and more likely a HE.

 

[jihe]

What Binky said
For self research I prefer CoL to Drama, but if you can trade for CoL then Drama is better for trade since AI's don't reasearch it.

Thanks for doing this thread. I am playing my own game with Ghandi and attempting to run as complete an SE as I can. As a long time CE player and occasional HE player I find this quite a challenge. One difficulty is sequencing tech research properly so as to use the GS's to best advantage. Could you summarize your stategy for how best to do this?

 

[nullspace]

Gandhi is good, but Montezuma can run a mean SE too. He's spiritual and aggressive, but the best part is his UB which cuts unhappiness from whipping from 10 turns down to 5. Lightbulb your way to chemistry, and whip a massive army of aggressive grenadiers. If you get chemistry quick, grenadiers last a long time.

 

[aelf]

I'm playing a game that sticks as closely to SE as possible, and it seems to be working out fine, considering it's not Gandhi and it's played against Better AI (I'm not sure which version exactly). I'm even using Caste System, something which I've almost never done before. However, there still are places where cottages are inevitably laid down. What do you do with pre-CS unirrigated grassland tiles, for example? And if your capital is not the GP farm, you might want to keep a mature cottage or two to benefit from Bureaucracy's commerce bonus post-CS.

 

[jihe]

You use specialists instead of working the land. You place your city where there is at least one food resource. Pre CS a typical city works 2 food resources or 1 food resource and a farm to support 3-4 specialists. You simply do not work the unirragated grasslands. After CS you farm/workshop everywhere and try to support as many specialists as health/happiness caps allow. I just don't like to spend a citizen working on a 2F1C cottage when I only have like five citizens in total.

I am not questioning the power of Bureaucracy, I just want to say that the economy can be managed so that you are free from running Bureaucracy (in fact Bureaucracy + Representation = not the best combo, on one hand you would like to run as many scientists for their instant 6 beakers, on the other hand you want to work cottages), then you can run Vassalage to get CRII maces/trebs out of the gate, and later on Nationhood. I ran Nationhood pretty much all game and drafted an entire army from the globe city.

Anyway my whole point is that the game can be played without any cottages and it is no more or less powerful, just different. I think one should take maximum advantage of traits/civics and do so whole-heartedly. Why run specialists when you are Finantial+Emancipation? Why work cottages when you are Representation+Pacifism? It is much better to go oneway completely and then switch completely.

I'm playing a game that sticks as closely to SE as possible, and it seems to be working out fine, considering it's not Gandhi and it's played against Better AI (I'm not sure which version exactly). I'm even using Caste System, something which I've almost never done before. However, there still are places where cottages are inevitably laid down. What do you do with pre-CS unirrigated grassland tiles, for example? And if your capital is not the GP farm, you might want to keep a mature cottage or two to benefit from Bureaucracy's commerce bonus post-CS.

 

[aelf]

You use specialists instead of working the land. You place your city where there is at least one food resource. Pre CS a typical city works 2 food resources or 1 food resource and a farm to support 3-4 specialists. You simply do not work the unirragated grasslands. After CS you farm/workshop everywhere and try to support as many specialists as health/happiness caps allow. I just don't like to spend a citizen working on a 2F1C cottage when I only have like five citizens in total.

But sometimes food resources aren't so freely available. I agree that your GP farm should be working as many food sources and farms as possible, but in other cities the unirrigated grassland may be the highest food source you have after farming whatever you can pre-CS.

I am not questioning the power of Bureaucracy, I just want to say that the economy can be managed so that you are free from running Bureaucracy (in fact Bureaucracy + Representation = not the best combo, on one hand you would like to run as many scientists for their instant 6 beakers, on the other hand you want to work cottages), then you can run Vassalage to get CRII maces/trebs out of the gate, and later on Nationhood. I ran Nationhood pretty much all game and drafted an entire army from the globe city.

Post-CS, Bureaucracy might be the best legal civic you can run for quite some time. I'd rather be running that than Despotism, even if I have to endure 1 turn of anarchy for it. And if your capital has been working that cottage as a food source, it would be mature by now and I would hesitate to just farm it over while I still stand to benefit from the Bureaucracy commerce bonus. Upkeep has to be paid, you know.

Anyway my whole point is that the game can be played without any cottages and it is no more or less powerful, just different. I think one should take maximum advantage of traits/civics and do so whole-heartedly. Why run specialists when you are Finantial+Emancipation? Why work cottages when you are Representation+Pacifism? It is much better to go oneway completely and then switch completely.

Completely something is not always possible. And neither is absolute specialisation always the best way. You did a good job demonstrating a relatively pure SE in this game. It's a good benchmark, but it seems to be a rather ideal situation.

 

[CivSetä]

Nice game, I learnt a lot! The way you lightbulbed your way through Paper/Edu was amazing. I am usually never able to generate enough GS to do that, maybe I hang on slavery too much.

Got to try Gandhi and SE on weekend myself.

 

[baboon]

At the beginning the more specialists you run the faster you get your GP's. You WILL get GP's from cities other than Great Library city. It's very flexible, if you see a city is close to giving you a GP but is just a turn or two behind your GP farm, then just starve that city and run less specialists in your GP farm for a couple of turns. Once your get your GS's (i.e. after Liberalism) GP's begin to lose power anyway, so you run specialists for research and money and don't worry about wasting GPP. In fact I usually leave Pacifism after that, it's a very expensive civic. The whole point is you should get as many GP's as EARLY as you can, and that means running scientists everywhere. No point wasting your trait and Pacifism.

Remeber GPP is a bonus effect (albeit a huge one) to your economy, you still need to self research and pay for troops with your specialists.

I see thanks, I always thought it was a weakness in my game that GP were mostly important in the start, but I understand it's like that for most people. Well I did learn to focus on GS, I used to get a lot of prophets.

 

[jihe]

But sometimes food resources aren't so freely available. I agree that your GP farm should be working as many food sources and farms as possible, but in other cities the unirrigated grassland may be the highest food source you have after farming whatever you can pre-CS.

Food is the most common resource, I cannot remember the last time I *have to* place a city where unirrigated grassland is the best food tile (not counting late game cities filling holes).

Post-CS, Bureaucracy might be the best legal civic you can run for quite some time. I'd rather be running that than Despotism, even if I have to endure 1 turn of anarchy for it. And if your capital has been working that cottage as a food source, it would be mature by now and I would hesitate to just farm it over while I still stand to benefit from the Bureaucracy commerce bonus. Upkeep has to be paid, you know.

Vassalage and Nationhood are not far away, like I said, I am not arguing the power of Bureaucracy, it's just there is a different way of doing things, and it's kind of fun to draft for 500 years

Honestly in the early game wouldn't running a scientist be more benificial than working a cottage? Especially if you are Philosophical?

Completely something is not always possible. And neither is absolute specialisation always the best way. You did a good job demonstrating a relatively pure SE in this game. It's a good benchmark, but it seems to be a rather ideal situation.

I believe that specialising as much as possible is always best. I mean if you have +50 science bonus one turn and +50 gold the other, 100% research one turn and 100% gold the other sure beats half-half for two turns. It just makes more sense to me that when you run Pacifism+Representation+Mercantilism you would have as many specialists as food allows, and only work cottages when Emancipation is going (captured towns would be even better). Actually this game was fairly typical, you always get at least 2 food resources in your capital and that's' really all one needs. In fact if there was earlier trading oppotunities, usually Liberalism by 700-800AD.

Anyway to each his own, whatever works is fine. I just thought that it was a sufficiently different way of playing to post it to the forum.

 

[aelf]

Food is the most common resource, I cannot remember the last time I *have to* place a city where unirrigated grassland is the best food tile (not counting late game cities filling holes).

Well, I had to. I moved my starting settler so that I can have a GP farm second city with two food resources (one of them seafood). The capital still has a food resource and several irrigated tiles, but a few grassland tiles are unirrigated and could not be farmed till CS.

Vassalage and Nationhood are not far away, like I said, I am not arguing the power of Bureaucracy, it's just there is a different way of doing things, and it's kind of fun to draft for 500 years

I'm not saying that Buraeaucracy is the best or anything either. I'm just saying why not run that in the meantime? And why not save that cottage you happen to have been running in the capital to take advantage of it?

Honestly in the early game wouldn't running a scientist be more benificial than working a cottage? Especially if you are Philosophical?

But there's only so many scientists you can run before your city starts to starve. You gotta work all the best food sources you have, and if one of them happens to be an unirrigated grassland tile, a cottage should at least be on it until CS. It's still preferable to working coastal tiles, right?

Actually this game was fairly typical, you always get at least 2 food resources in your capital and that's' really all one needs. In fact if there was earlier trading oppotunities, usually Liberalism by 700-800AD.

Then only your capital can abide by this rule. How is it possible not to lay down cottages in cities that aren't endowed with food resources or many irrigated tiles?

Anyway to each his own, whatever works is fine. I just thought that it was a sufficiently different way of playing to post it to the forum.

It is. Excellent work! I just haven't found it easy to apply its principles perfectly, and I don't see how to except in somewhat ideal situations.

 

[Melon Head]

You mentioned the micromanagement being a bit of a problem. it may be worth setting governor priorities at your various cities to try and get them to assign scientist specialists rather than artists when the city grows. For instance, you could select emphasize science, food, and GPP and see if that works. i ahven't tried it, and it's not foolproof, but it could help.