Ansar01-the slow-moving idiots

[soul_warrior]

Now I've got some questions:

1. Is the order of AW early game, spear -> settler -> spear in core cities?
2. Why do you suggest Amsterdam grow to size 7?
3. Was it a bad thing(cowardly) to not meet Mario of the Persians?

1- usually i would say no. what we need is atleast 2 spears per settler, to avoid its loss, if spear dies.
this is the defensive phase of the game, hence we need more units, which can slow expansion, but atleast we will get to keep what we expand onto.

2- growth to size 7 is not a neccesity, but wise anyway.
we dont have a granary, so we lose 2 pop anyway (same with size 7 and a gran)
but if we allow it to grow, we get the added production, as well as more units inbetween settlers.

3- not meeting Mario was one of the HIGHLIGHTS of your set.
nothing cowardly in avoiding war with an immortal stack!
we dont need more contacts now. we need less.
as long as he doesnt know we are here, he wont be bothering us.
and that, my friend, is VERY GOOD NEWS.

all in all - very nicely done

i think we should hold a bit on expansion and get more spears online, atleast at the front.
next settler should go claim the iron, too.

 

[jb1964]

Got it. Will be playing today.

 

[Theryman]

Good, iron. For some reason, in every game I play, I am stuck wihout iron.

Anyways, good job avoiding the Persians. They would have been the third AA UU we were at war with!

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Explore and no other civ.

Looking for trouble are ya Get those archers back before they get hurt, jb.

Mathematics was [...] what Bede said

Nothing to add

Now I've got some questions:

1. Is the order of AW early game, spear -> settler -> spear in core cities?
2. Why do you suggest Amsterdam grow to size 7?
3. Was it a bad thing(cowardly) to not meet Mario of the Persians?

Answer 1: Core cities have to balance out the production of units, settlers and workers. We need enough units, then enough settlers to expand, then enough workers to consolidate. Amsterdam is huge in both food and production, and we need to squeeze the fruit for all its capacity. The other towns will ensure we don't have too many settlers for our units if it goes unbalanced that way, or enough workers to get the work done.

Right now we can afford the lull involved in building barracks first in every city, so do it and make vet spears/archers. Make the odd settler and worker when they time in for growth.

There is no build order in particular, just make sure there's a spear or two in every town and an archer or two in every sector. When we have maths, some towns can go without a barracks and make full time catapults/workers or such.

Answer 2: I was saying getting it to size 7 is better than shrinking it to size 4, so if timing fails, make one more archer and let it grow up for a turn or two.

Answer 3: No, it was a good thing to avoid them, and you should back off the archers before you do !!

Worker roading

In AW, what you need foremost is mines up. Roading is good when you can afford it, crucial when you have a network of towns, but shields is where it's at. Gold is a sidekick prize compared to 10 shields a turn for spears, archers and catapults.

This comes up with two conclusions: 1- the worker should be mining BG's in the capital; 2- we need more workers out of the secondary towns to road (network, purely for transport) and improve (chop, mines up and irrigation for the few plains we need) our first ring.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

"Answer 3: No, it was a good thing to avoid them, and you should back off the archers before you do !!"

This is gospel in AW, even AWM and surely AME or better. You cannot afford to get contacts as that means more units to deal with. Just explore enough to see where the next town should go and hunker down.

If you have 3 or more civs pouring units in early, you will be very busy and any improvements are going to soon be at risk.

Once those civs switch over to almost only troops, even slow movers are a handful. Until you gain either an army or cats, you are going to have very little in the way of an advantage in combat. None with attackers and you have to try to keep a decent kill ratio as you cannot replace units as fast as three civs can.

After you get cats and an amy or two, that will change some. Eventually you will get large enough to be able to keep up in replacements.

 

[jb1964]

It's turn three.
We have three four cities, three archers, 5 spears, one warrior and one worker.
One city is 5-turns from a racks and we get another vet spear nezt turn for the other city. The newly foulded city is busy putting up a racks that's not due for a while.
The capitol will grow to size 5 next turn.
I think it's time to build the granary.
The other thing is that the Capitol is at an awkward production level of 9 spt.
(Growth next turn working the forest and afterwards still 9spt working the fish.)

Objections?

 

[jb1964]

Too late, the deed is done and I'm happy w/ the results.

Turn 0 – 1750 BC
“You boys pick up all those arrows and get your butts back inside!”
Or in the famous words of the Knights of the Round Table, “Run away!”
Entertainment can be dialed back to 0%.

Turn 1 – 1725 BC, Move settler to green dot. Road finished, begin mining.
Turn 2 – 1700 BC, Found Blooming Idiot. Racks.
Turn 3 – 1675 BC, Capitol: spear - granary
Turn 4 – 1650 BC, Nothing
Turn 5 – 1625 BC, Nothing
IBT: We know Math, set our sites on Monarchy and the three preceding techs. CB in 4.
Turn 6 – 1600 BC, MM the granary to finish just prior to next growth then pump a quick, and needed worker.
IBT: Inca show up w/ two warriors. Yawn.
Turn 7 – 1575 BC, Nothing
IBT: Inca bring in another warrior. Or as I like to call them, Great Leader generators.
Turn 8 – 1550 BC, Nothing
IBT: One warrior dies (arrow/spear no hits), elite spear. CB in, Myst in 4 at –2gpt w/ 111 in the bank.
The peeps give us a lovely lawn.
Turn 9 – 1525 BC, Pin a medal on the spear's chest. Should rename him Uglysticker.
IBT: Another warrior thinks it all looks kewl and follows his bother into the ether. eSpear 5/5, no GL.
Hamsterdam: granary – worker (10spt and growth next turn)
Turn 10 – 1500 BC, This time we attack out at the warrior w/ our elite archer. Now 2/5 and no GL.

One mistake I see is that I should have put a spear on the hill in front of Sugrarcane Stacks. That would either make the AI pay a higher price for the hill and would force units into the open plains. Rotate the eArcher into the city and push the spear out.

With all the MP's our Entertainment slider is still at 0%. Myst in 3 turns.
When we settle the red dot (next?) just set it to making cats.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Good call on the granary jb

Just a reminder, Thery: don't forget that, when at size 5, you can give the mined BG back to Amster to get 4 turns growth, and when at size 6 you can afford to give more shields to Blooming Idiot. That way Amster never slows down and the other towns speed up.

 

[Bede]

lurker's comment: Walls first, then maybe a regular spear before a barracks in all towns from here on out unless they are safely in the backlines. Two or three regular spears and some walls do a better job of stopping the enemy then a barracks. (the promotions will come of their own) And I'm not sure where the backlines are since I don't know where the enemy boundaries are.

Counterintuitve note: the iron can wait until you have two or more towns with barracks at 6spt or better. Walls, spears and cats are cheaper and better defenders and maybe an archer or two to kill cripples.

 

[Ansar]

nice turns there, jb.

I like the granary, it will help growth. Also, we could use 1 or 2 more workers and then back to spear/settler pairs. Agree that red dot next, then the orange one. the orange city, being on a hill, will produce many victories on our side, also it will serve as a...whats it called...killzone(?) for the AI units to crash into, making the core more productive and less dangerous of any interventions.

Im guessing now we are going to defend our homeland by settling until we are strong enough to attack someone AND make them part of our empire? I want to learn how to use cats on the offensive.

 

[Tribute]

A silly question, is it considered unorthodox to use settler pair spear defenders as cover for archers? 'cause that's what I did.

Not that it's a bad thing, but if we switch the unmined BG to the fish, upon growth, that BG will be selected and we get 1 extra commerce.

And finally, for some odd reason, I just want to contact Persia because that way it'll stop them from developing and making the workers, towns, and cultural expansions necessary to get iron. Unless they're lucky enough to already have it in their borders.

But you all seem to think that no contact will allow us to expand better, which is true. So either cripple one AI or make ourselves stronger. What do you think?

 

[Bede]

lurker's comment: Time will come soon enough to go calling on X-man. Get an elite spear and a couple of vets and send them to pay a visit. We have the advantage as we know where he is. All he may know is where we came from. The spears can do a great job of supressing his production....but make sure to send enough force. One spear won't do it, two are marginal...

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Whats it called...killzone(?) for the AI units to crash into, making the core more productive and less dangerous of any interventions.

Im guessing now we are going to defend our homeland by settling until we are strong enough to attack someone AND make them part of our empire? I want to learn how to use cats on the offensive.

Exactly right, a killzone it is, and that's how we proceed. Catapults on the offense isn't rocket science: you use a large stack of 4-5 spears covering ~10 cats and ~10 swords, with a few horsies for the eventual usefulness. Send them to the front, make most of the catapults bombard. Send the horses. Unleash the swordsmen. Use the remaining catapult against promoted units or whatever comes up if necessary. This makes it possible to beat NuMe, Legions and Hops - at all.

A silly question, is it considered unorthodox to use settler pair spear defenders as cover for archers? 'cause that's what I did.

Not that it's a bad thing, but if we switch the unmined BG to the fish, upon growth, that BG will be selected and we get 1 extra commerce.

Good thinking on the micro, and a stack is a stack, wether it carries a settler or not, archers are best kept under stacks.

So either cripple one AI or make ourselves stronger. What do you think?

If this were a player vs player game, I wouldn't say let him grow, but this is vs an AI, and we must think outside of the full war engagement box. If we went in an all-out open war with an AI the way AI's make war, we'd be barely able to make it at regent.

Exploiting the AI's tactical difficulties is what makes AW possible against many opponents on levels higher than regent. And wether 1 AI out of several grows or not means little compared to wether or not WE do grow. Crippling anyone at the cost of our own unstopping, unbounded expansion, is never a good idea.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

lurker's comment:

Is the order of AW early game, spear -> settler -> spear in core cities?

The order is what keeps you alive. Don't get locked into one pattern.

Why do you suggest Amsterdam grow to size 7?

much too lazy to search out this comment. If I'm counting correctly, it will get you to 10spt, a 2 turn spear pump

Was it a bad thing(cowardly) to not meet Mario of the Persians?

No. See Handy's games. You get one shot at trading, might as well make the best of it.

BTW, go get the grapes.

 

[jb1964]

And finally, for some odd reason, I just want to contact Persia because that way it'll stop them from developing and making the workers, towns, and cultural expansions necessary to get iron. Unless they're lucky enough to already have it in their borders.

I totally understand the reasoning behind wanting to embroil Persia in a war to ****** growth but that will happen soon enough. If we did provoke the war we could wind up only facing the three AI's sending fodder for us. Then again, we could stumble across the Chinese and a few others at the same time. The other risk of too many enemies, too soon, is that it will ****** our growth. The risk of letting them develop in peace is valid, but as I see it, it carries a lower risk of failure than the risks associated w/ too many fights and stunting our own development.

And based on empirical evidence, running out and looking for a fight at this level is a one-way ticket to notching up another loss.

Let me reminisce about an AW game I joined and got to play about three turns. From the start a few of the players built warriors and sent them on walkabout. We got smoked.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Theryman UP, and you heard the admiral

X-post: was it R&L4 with the Hitties? That game was barely even funny so much we got massacred by the deadly not-so-early-scouting-of-doom-bringing-contacts.

 

[Theryman]

GOt it. Will play it soon. To hell with exams!

Also, are we still using your dotmap, B? Back in post 63.

 

[Ansar]

Also, are we still using your dotmap, B? Back in post 63.

Thats the master plan, IIRC.

 

[jb1964]

@BeF, Yes, it was R&L04. We were Babs and had a nice despot GA. We were burnt toast.

Can I suggest the following changes to the dots now that we see a bit more territory?

Also, I think the next dot to be founded should be light blue or black. Either will become more productive nore quickly than red. Red is a longer term worker investment crossing the river and improving the hills.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Moving LB and black sounds good, and going for black early is, as the Admiral pointed out, beneficial. However we cannot spare the workforce to road it immediately so it shouldn't be straight next. Red is also, as you mentionned, a mid-long term dot that we'll settle when we want a few more tiles.

However, settling the gold hill is a free 3-4 gpt. Every time I see a gold hill, it itches me to settle it. Road/mining on a hill is rather long, but settling on it gives full benefits instantaneously and gives the city more food to grow vs working the hill.