Any former WoW players out there?

It really depends on the MMO, but they can be rather fun. The ones that I've played seem to be rather RPG-light, but with an emphasis on exploration and atmosphere. As I say, it really depends on the game; for some reason I never got into World of Warcraft, yet really got into Lord of the Rings Online, which is essentially WoW with prettier graphics and an emphasis on Tolkien lore.

If you really felt up to it, download the LotRo trial and I'll come join you. At the very least it'll get me back into the game after a years absence, so I might be able to respond to the OP in some way :p

Thankee for the offer, but I'll pass. Feel free to go back and whack a few hobbitses for me though!
 
In terms of RPGs, I tend to favor the more modern ones and/or sci-fi ones. Especially Fallout.
 
Incidentally I've tried some other MMOs since, but really the only one I've been able to play for a long period of time without getting bored is CoH. The genre really needs something inventive done to it...

oddly enough I resubscribed to CoH this afternoon after the OP reminded me of my old MMORPGS yesterday and I checked out a COH trial account for some levels earlier on. a more entertaining pve mmorpg than wow imho and I always loved the way you could customize your build.
 
See, that is one thing I don't like about mmos, there is too much power gaming. The entire game gets reduced to mathematical stats, who has the best gear, who can output the most damage per second, etc.
 
See, that is one thing I don't like about mmos, there is too much power gaming. The entire game gets reduced to mathematical stats, who has the best gear, who can output the most damage per second, etc.

That's part of why I like CoH so much. In all honesty builds and (the equivalent of) equipment don't matter that much. Bar 2-3 things (MoSTF, MoLRSF, maybe MoITF, all which are just rewards for completing the applicable content without anyone dieing), all the content in the game can be done with a sensible (though not optimised by any means) build and generic shop bought equipment. Nor do you need the "right" team. No tanks? So what? No defenders? So what? Hell, I've run plenty of task forces with an 8 scrapper (melee DPS) team. Yeah we die a lot, but we get up, keep fighting and have a hell of a lot of fun. :p

There is plenty of more powerful dropped "equipment", but it's optional. In general, getting "IOed out" will let you do content in a way it wasn't designed: soloing 8 man missions, duoing TFs etc. You can spend days optimising your build (go look on the "Scrapper" section of the official boards...), and months getting all the IOs, but you don't have to in order to do anything in the game as it was designed.
 
WoW's storyline is somewhere between non-existent and terrible.

On this we will have to disagree. I have greatly enjoyed many of the questlines in WoW, especially the ones that poke fun at real world issues with a wink and a nod.

My question, then, is has this changed? Some MMOs don't require you to spend X number of hours in order to enjoy the game. This is partly why I really like Star Trek Online - you can play as much or as little as you want and it doesn't seem to affect how much you can get out of the game. My experience in WoW, though, is that you need to spend either a few hours a night grinding PvP stuff, or a few more hours a night grinding PvE stuff, in order to get the most out of the game.

Well, with the implementation of the dungeon finder tool, it has changed a lot. At level 70 you can queue up for the first few 5 mans in WotLK, and any regular dungeon (keys may be required for some) in the BC. Since you are placed in a random group of 5 people from all servers, if you are typically low geared you will still be able to contribute some and get some rapid upgrades of loot that no one really cares for outside of the coin or shards it would provide.

My example: I got back into the game less than a month ago and started a death knight at level 55. I am now participating in heroic level dungeons at level 80 with at least 4 pieces if tier 9 gear. I dont game every day, but if I do play thats only for a hour or two at night. The 'grinding' of doing quests (which I enjoy anyway) I do only for extra cash, not exp, 'cause I want to buy the faster mount riding skill (300) and that costs 5000 gold...but you dont 'need' that per se to enjoy the game right now.

If all you wanted to do was run a couple of dungeons a night (and some runs can be as quick as 15-20 mins tops) then the dungeon finder tool is a great way for the casual player to enjoy the game.

If you were a casual player, who just wanted to play some PvP every now and then, or craft some cool Engineering gadgets, you wouldn't find it very fun, because in PvP you'd get raped severely by well organised teams with much better gear than you, or you would have to spend bloody ages tediously searching for various mineral veins, obscure gemstones and increasingly exotic types of leather.

I havent PvP'd much for the sole reason it is extremely gear oriented, and like anthing, there are some people who have put in some phenominal time in tweaking their stuff. Its like I like playing casual football...but I woudnt find it very much fun to play against professionals. I do have a few PvP kills, but those were more targets of opportunity (and the enemy doing something stupid) than actually planning on doing it.

But PvP is a voluntary part of the game, and you can enjoy it without doing any PvP at all.

As to engineering.....well, you can now build helicopters for flying mounts and there is even a Harly Davidson-esqe motorcycle you can build as a mount. Very cool indeed and the formula is easy to get off a vendor.

See, that is one thing I don't like about mmos, there is too much power gaming. The entire game gets reduced to mathematical stats, who has the best gear, who can output the most damage per second, etc.

You are going to find powergaming in any and every online multiplayer game there is. There is simply no way to avoid it. And the stat thing is true in every multi-player game as well.....from first person shooters to MMOs to RTS games. Its just a fact of the online gaming community, and it does turn some people off very much. Others, not so much. I dont mind losing to someone else if I (a) learned something in doing it, and (b) had fun. If all I wanted to do was win all the time with no challenge, I would play single player computer games with the computer put on 'easy' and thats it.
 
You are going to find powergaming in any and every online multiplayer game there is. There is simply no way to avoid it. And the stat thing is true in every multi-player game as well.....from first person shooters to MMOs to RTS games. Its just a fact of the online gaming community, and it does turn some people off very much. Others, not so much. I dont mind losing to someone else if I (a) learned something in doing it, and (b) had fun. If all I wanted to do was win all the time with no challenge, I would play single player computer games with the computer put on 'easy' and thats it.

While yes there are power gamers in everything, most of the time I don't see them. However, there aren't a lot of them in FPS games and most people are not going to the extreme extent that RTS and MMO players go to, which is ALL about power gaming. Its also limited in most FPS games anyways, you can't power game in Red Orchestra for example, its not possible. There is a difference between power gaming and doing what is best as well (though the lines can get blurry in some games).

I don't see what winning all the time and and playing against easy AI opponents has to do with this, except that the point of power gaming is to max everything out so you DO win ALL the time.
 
While yes there are power gamers in everything, most of the time I don't see them. However, there aren't a lot of them in FPS games and most people are not going to the extreme extent that RTS and MMO players go to, which is ALL about power gaming. Its also limited in most FPS games anyways, you can't power game in Red Orchestra for example, its not possible. There is a difference between power gaming and doing what is best as well (though the lines can get blurry in some games).

Not all games genres experience to the same extent, however, the recent trend in FPS games has been for weapon unlocks and also skills/perks to give advantages to people who play a lot or have a certain style of play.

Likewise, even since the AWP days, people have complained about the over-skilled or over-powered in FPS and what they label 'cheese' (i.e. nube tubes, martyr, last stand, etc. etc.) and what is not.

The example you give in Red Orchestra, and other mods like Forgotten Hope for Battlefield 1942 go for ultra-realistic simulation and tactics as opposed to your typical FPS games most popular today. But they cater to their own brand of elitism as well - that being map knowledge (location, location, location), sneak well, camp well, and see your enemy before he sees you, and ultimately how well you can shoot with iron sights as opposed to the old standby 'spray and pray'.

I don't see what winning all the time and and playing against easy AI opponents has to do with this, except that the point of power gaming is to max everything out so you DO win ALL the time.

Except there are such numbers of powergamers on the net, thats never the case. No one wins all the time. You can however, be one of the absolute best, and power gaming at least gives one that opportunity to compete somewhat at that level. I guess bottom line its about desire to be competitive or casual, and it truly mirrors real life. If you want to be a pro golfer on the PGA tour then you have to grind hours and hours of life away in order to have that level of skill. Same with online games. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt be able to enjoy a casual round of golf with your friends. You absolutely should. And this is what I am talking about in WoW. You can now form that 'golf scramble' group to head out on the links and play with no real waiting involved and absolutely no need to compete with the 'power gamers' out there. Its actually a pretty nice system.
 
Not all games genres experience to the same extent, however, the recent trend in FPS games has been for weapon unlocks and also skills/perks to give advantages to people who play a lot or have a certain style of play.
Yes and no, while unlocks and perks do usually provide benefits, you can do perfectly well without them if you actually know how to play, I am regularly at or near the top of scoreboard in Bad Company 2 using the 3rd weakest medic machine gun and no magnum ammo with a better k/d than most of the other players. I am good at BC2, but I wouldn't consider myself awesome at it or anything, I simply know how to play. Hell I could improve my K/D ratio easily by using the M60 with magnum ammo (or even without it) but I would rather be USEFUL to my team and take the extra healing bonuses (1.5 times increase in healing speed and extra range). A lot of the unlockable weapons aren't necessarily better statistically than the starter weapon (for engineers the starter gun does the most damage).

Likewise, even since the AWP days, people have complained about the over-skilled or over-powered in FPS and what they label 'cheese' (i.e. nube tubes, martyr, last stand, etc. etc.) and what is not.

Some of them are poor-coding on the developer's part, others are (also) abuse by players. The AWP is a 1-hit-1-kill weapon, but not everyone uses it all the time. Some guns simply ARE going to kill you in one hit, like a .50 caliber rifle is simply going to tear you apart (though in BC2 after X amount of distance it won't kill in 1 body shot). Noob tubes are quite cheap, they have their perfectly fine uses but the problem is they are TOO easy to use and to rack up a lot of kills with. They were nerfed a bit in BC2 in the last patch, thankfully. Now you have to be more accurate with them. I don't use them much, mostly for their intended use of blasting a hole in a building, otherwise its like the idiot tards who run around with a carl gustav ANTI TANK WEAPON and just shoot it at any enemy they see (which isn't always the best tactic, I've often started shooting at some idiot who then switches to his gustav but is dead before he can fire it).

Martyrdom was just plain retardedly stupid, especialyl in hardcore mode. It really was cheap.

Last stand is an example of where people are complaining because they made a mistake, I rarely got killed by someone in last stand because I made the effort to pump the extra bullet into them before they could draw their pistol. Its not hard.

The example you give in Red Orchestra, and other mods like Forgotten Hope for Battlefield 1942 go for ultra-realistic simulation and tactics as opposed to your typical FPS games most popular today. But they cater to their own brand of elitism as well - that being map knowledge (location, location, location), sneak well, camp well, and see your enemy before he sees you, and ultimately how well you can shoot with iron sights as opposed to the old standby 'spray and pray'.

:lol::lol::lol: ultra-realistic :lol::lol::lol:

Map knowledge applies to any game and is simply tactical, it has little to do with full on power gaming. Iron sites are used in most decent shooters and are an added benefit to aiming, as well as being realistic. "pray and spray" is usually a desperate tactic to use that will usually fail.

Neither that mod nor game are ultra-realistic. They are more realistic, but are not ARMA, Op Flash or IL-2.

Except there are such numbers of powergamers on the net, thats never the case. No one wins all the time. You can however, be one of the absolute best, and power gaming at least gives one that opportunity to compete somewhat at that level. I guess bottom line its about desire to be competitive or casual, and it truly mirrors real life. If you want to be a pro golfer on the PGA tour then you have to grind hours and hours of life away in order to have that level of skill. Same with online games. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt be able to enjoy a casual round of golf with your friends. You absolutely should. And this is what I am talking about in WoW. You can now form that 'golf scramble' group to head out on the links and play with no real waiting involved and absolutely no need to compete with the 'power gamers' out there. Its actually a pretty nice system.

When did I say there weren't power gamers? FPS games are difficult if not impossible to do full-on power gaming, bits and pieces maybe. Skill should and (if the game has any semblance of balance) will beat power gaming as or more often than not.

Obviously pro-gamers know all the tips n tricks and workings and power game, I don't play in any "pro" stuff. While you don't need to compete with the power gamers in WoW or any mmo, you'd better hope you have a good group of like-minded friends to play with or find a crappy guild or random groups to join. If you don't have good gear for the raid/instance/whatever people are going to strongly dislike you if you cause them to fail. But whatever, I don't really care about mmos anyways.
 
Yes and no, while unlocks and perks do usually provide benefits, you can do perfectly well without them if you actually know how to play, I am regularly at or near the top of scoreboard in Bad Company 2 using the 3rd weakest medic machine gun and no magnum ammo with a better k/d than most of the other players. I am good at BC2, but I wouldn't consider myself awesome at it or anything, I simply know how to play. Hell I could improve my K/D ratio easily by using the M60 with magnum ammo (or even without it) but I would rather be USEFUL to my team and take the extra healing bonuses (1.5 times increase in healing speed and extra range). A lot of the unlockable weapons aren't necessarily better statistically than the starter weapon (for engineers the starter gun does the most damage).

I humbly submit you dont need the absolute best gear in WoW to have fun with it either. I know I dont (have the absolute best gear), but I am enjoying what I am doing.

Martyrdom was just plain retardedly stupid, especialyl in hardcore mode. It really was cheap.

Last stand is an example of where people are complaining because they made a mistake, I rarely got killed by someone in last stand because I made the effort to pump the extra bullet into them before they could draw their pistol. Its not hard.

No, its not hard, but even in the knowing, sometimes you fall prey to it when someone else forgets to double-tap his victim and you are the one that gets shot in the back for it.

:lol::lol::lol: ultra-realistic :lol::lol::lol:

Well, maybe a bad choice of words on my part...lets say 'more' realistic in comparison with most games in the genre.

Map knowledge applies to any game and is simply tactical, it has little to do with full on power gaming.

My point was that such knowledge only comes with hours/days/weeks playing the maps.....ergo, time which could be arguably discribed as 'grinding' in other games.

Iron sites are used in most decent shooters and are an added benefit to aiming, as well as being realistic. "pray and spray" is usually a desperate tactic to use that will usually fail.

Neither that mod nor game are ultra-realistic. They are more realistic, but are not ARMA, Op Flash or IL-2.

I dont presume to lecture you on FPS games, but I am not unfamiliar with the genre and have played FPS possibly more than any other thanks to BF 1942 (and all its mods), Team Fortress 2 and the various COD titles.

If you don't have good gear for the raid/instance/whatever people are going to strongly dislike you if you cause them to fail.

Thats true about crappy gear or crappy playskills both. Nothing more frustrating than playing a team FPS game with a capture the flag or push victory condition and several on your team want to play a sniper role and end up not contributing a dang thing to the team and you get rolled as a result.
 
I humbly submit you dont need the absolute best gear in WoW to have fun with it either. I know I dont (have the absolute best gear), but I am enjoying what I am doing.
I never said you couldn't still enjoy it.

My point was that such knowledge only comes with hours/days/weeks playing the maps.....ergo, time which could be arguably discribed as 'grinding' in other games.
You can grind learning the map I guess, if you intently study it, but grinding is different from playing the game a lot. Grinding is purposefully doing the same task over and over again (to level yourself up or get a certain drop, etc).

Spoiler :
Thats true about crappy gear or crappy playskills both. Nothing more frustrating than playing a team FPS game with a capture the flag or push victory condition and several on your team want to play a sniper role and end up not contributing a dang thing to the team and you get rolled as a result.

I hate that too. Sometimes if a particularly useless sniper bugs me I light him up with tracer darts so he looks like a blinking red christmas tree. Or stand in front of him knifing him for a bit.
 
I have never seen an MMORPG that wasn't a grind fest. WOW being the worst offender.
 
grinding is different from playing the game a lot. Grinding is purposefully doing the same task over and over again (to level yourself up or get a certain drop, etc).

I think that hits the proverbial nail on its head. grinding has been around since the very first age of home computer games. sure you could hit that one room with the 99 berserkers in The Bard's Tale over and over again. sure, you can defeat Mephisto on Nightmare a gazillion times. for many people that is fun as long as there is an end to it. gaining levels, cash, equipment, playing with mates, leveling a mate.

if you are not a min/maxer in some way (minus the playing with mates bit) then mmorpgs are probably not for you. no harm, no foul.

me? I like the "get a new skill" or "get a shiny new item" part of games. heck, it is one of the few reasons I ever played BF2 for some time. now throw in some set bonuses or snazzy proccs and I am a happy camper, especially if there are extra levels of individualization available. I spent months in DAoC hunting down my 2h sword and never got that 1h sword I wanted for sword and board. drove me nuts. I am that kind of player who will gladly grind.

those of us who play CIV games through till the end are the same. more often than not you win in the first third of a game. if you ever kept around for that cultural victory or 100% conquest you were grinding. again, nothing wrong with it as long as you are having fun in some way.
 
Grinding is purposefully doing the same task over and over again (to level yourself up or get a certain drop, etc).

For me at least, I'd just add a little clarification to this: grinding is doing a task you don't enjoy repeatedly in order to get some reward. Even if I'm doing the same thing over and over again, if it's fun, it doesn't feel like a grind. If, however, it's boring as hell and I'm only doing it because I need to to get something, now that is a grind...
 
For the record, I hate grinding, but I am a compulsive min/maxer... "Casual" MMORPGs are perfect for me, because they don't force you to endlessly grind for the best stuff, and then the stuff that's better than that, and then the new sparkly tier 3 better stuff, etc etc etc, but rather give everyone roughly the same stuff and say "here's some stuff, make the best character you can out of it".
 
I played WoW for about a year towards the end of my studies and a bit after that. I enjoyed exploring the world and all. I found it pretty fun, but eventually I got a job and well, there you had it, I could not play it enough to see any sort of advancement at a rewarding speed. You literally have to spend at least 3 hours a day on this game to feel like you are accomplishing anything, yet you stay because the environment and exploration and stuff you can do with your friends is kindda fun... Dangerous stuff.

The changes that I see in the game are kind of appealing to me but I can't spend this much time playing a single game anymore, I'd rather try to find some other life projects than just leveling characters in WoW, hehe. Yeah, playing WoW the way it's meant to be played is pretty much a life project.
 
I have never seen an MMORPG that wasn't a grind fest. WOW being the worst offender.

Then you havent played a lot of MMOs. I have tried many, and some were absolutely horrible about that.

There is a reason WoW has made billions upon billions of dollars and is still going strong today. Its not the 'worst offender' but probably the best MMO of all time. Its certainly the most successful of all time, so there has to be a reason it still sells huge numbers of copies even today, and has a player base other games turn red with envy over.
 
As the saying goes, you can have only TWO of the following THREE:
WoW
A full time job
A girlfriend

Then you havent played a lot of MMOs. I have tried many, and some were absolutely horrible about that.

There is a reason WoW has made billions upon billions of dollars and is still going strong today. Its not the 'worst offender' but probably the best MMO of all time. Its certainly the most successful of all time, so there has to be a reason it still sells huge numbers of copies even today, and has a player base other games turn red with envy over.

WoW isn't the worst offender for grind, but its still very grind heavy. EDIT: Your sentence structure strongly implied you meant to say not the best mmo of all time. Which no game can claim as I am sure something better will come along, but WoW is definitely one of the better more recent/up to date mmos.
 
As the saying goes, you can have only TWO of the following THREE:
WoW
A full time job
A girlfriend

As most sayings go, this one is incorrect also, since plenty of people manage to disprove that just fine.

WoW isn't the worst offender for grind, but its still very grind heavy. Also I fixed your sentence, I think you missed a word (otherwise it doesn't really make sense).

I would simply ask you make your objections to my opinion without altering my quote please. No need to do that.

But I stand by my opinion, since it does happen to be my opinion. As I didnt presume to lecture you on FPS, since MMOs arent your thing, do you really want to lecture me about my own opinion?
 
As the saying goes, you can have only TWO of the following THREE:
WoW
A full time job
A girlfriend

It's funny then how pretty much everyone who I ever played wow with has had all 3 of those, if they haven't had a full time job then they've been a full time student. I've heard many stories of couples meeting through WoW, one of them is even in my current guild.

This is also why I know this thread will die. There seems to be a rather large bias against blizzard and mmos in general on these forums, with a possible exception of diablo 3. The previous WoW thread had alot of the same anti-wow stuff posted in it as well.
 
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