Any tips to generate Great Persons without Philosophical trait

gavenkoa

Prince
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
485
Location
Ukraine
It looks like I need only G Scientist for the Academy and other are not worth it.

I do run Scientist (+3B) in early game (there are no that much tiles with +3C) but to offset zero research rate of crippled economy.

Parthenon +50% (Great Wonder) + Pacifism +100% (Civic) may help. Are they worth it?
 
I usually always go for the great library and build the national epic at the same city which will also add another 200% gpps for 300% with pacifism; I like to get merchants for upgrades though so i go heavy on the gpps.
 
Parthenon is generally considered not worth it. Pacifism is, with Philosophy being bulbed by a GS for early access more often than not. National Epic might also be worth it, depending on how easy it'll be to build, though I personally prefer to avoid building it because of the GA pollution. On higher difficulties you'll probably need to take some risks, though. Golden Age is also worthwhile, though not worth starting just because one city is generating a great person.
 
Well an optimal path for deity games was always Cuirs, with using the music GA for a golden age (and music needed for MT).
Then switching into Caste + Paci (often not just until your golden age ends, but until you need whips again), and creating great scientists for Education (sometimes also Lib) bulbs. Also adding 1-2 GMs for gold, while building HAs or Jumbos that will be upgraded to Cuirs later.

Edu also leads to gunpowder, and Lib ofc while you can skip the Guilds line.
2 GS mean the very expensive tech costs no beakers, and makes for a great focused bulb line example.
 
national epic

Forget about this one: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/National_Epic_(Civ4)

So far GP modifiers:

* National Epic +100% 1 city (National wonder)
* Parthenon +50% all cities (Great Wonder), until Scientific Method. https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Parthenon_(Civ4)
* Pacifism +100% all cities (Civic) may help

GP birth formula:

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Person_(Civ4) - 100gpps (great person points) and + 100gpps each time until 1000, then extra +200gpps more each time:

Code:
Great Person Threshold
        1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11   12   13
Quick   67  134  200  267  334  400  467  534  600  667  800  934 1067
Normal 100  200  300  400  500  600  700  800  900 1000 1200 1400 1600
Epic   150  300  450  600  750  900 1050 1200 1350 1500 1800 2100 2400
Mara.  300  600  900 1200 1500 1800 2100 2400 2700 3000 3600 4200 4800


Parthenon is generally considered not worth it.
That is the logic behind this?

I like Parthenon but with good play you get to Scientific Method quickly. You can make Parthenon after T100 and get to Scientific Method around T200. For that time (between T100 and T200) you get 4-5 GP (??? is that true) with non-phylo leader. Parthenon increases it to 6-7. 400 hammers for 2 extra GP - I think it worth it. 2 G Merchants give 2000-2500G, 2 G Scientists give 3000B.

I can mistake in my above guess.

UPDATE. I like Parthenon when Marble is here. Otherwise I don't try to get it. With Marble benefit in beakers and gold is more impressive ))
 
Last edited:
Parthenon is fine when you go for Assembly Line first, otherwise its lifespan is too short. Philosophical makes its bonus negligible, though. I hardly ever build it on normal speed, because there are better marble wonders, and usually by the time I might consider building the Parthenon, it's gone. Slower speeds are different, of course.
 
Philosophical makes its bonus negligible, though
I was taught here on forum why is that.

All bonuses are additive. So non-philo 1 vs 1.5 = 1.5 times faster (50%), philo: 2 vs 2.5 = 1.25 times faster (25%).

and usually by the time I might consider building the Parthenon, it's gone
I feel competitiveness too. So I rush for Parthenon if I have Marble shifting priorities.

I need to stop playing Charismatic (+1 happiness per city, +1 happiness from Monument) leaders on IMM to value Monarchy. Charismatic makes happiness difference 4 (non) vs 6 (with) - path to Monarchy is not so urgent so I can move to Literature / Currency first...
 
I'm playing with char leaders too atm as i find the games more consistent for when you do not have early happiness resources. Are you building the Parthenon and the Great Library? I usually always get the latter but use the former for fail gold.
 
Are you building the Parthenon and the Great Library
I pursue Great Library because of this forum recommendation. It gives 2 G Scientists. It's 6bpt + 6gppt. GL is about T100, I play duel/tiny size maps and end game at T300. For 200T it gives 6bpt*200t = 1200B and 1200gpp - around 3 GPs (200+300+400+500). It doesn't look so great.

At T100 my research rate is 50-100bpt and 300bpt at T200. 6bpt isn't that great. The value is in 6gppt. 3 GPs is 1200*3 = 3600G or 1500*3 = 4500B. The price is 350H (or 175H with Marble). It pays for itself within 50T (or 25 with Marble or something like 20T with Philosophical leader).

Parthenon gives less income: 2gppt and boost +50% gppt rate. As I earlier wrote that may lead to extra 2-3 GP at cost of 400H and deprecates with Scientific Method. So Great Library can be 2-4 times more effective investment than Parthenon. It's rough comparison.

Parthenon failgold is not that great 400 or 800G (unless you have Industrious leader trait or Marble that make it 50% or 100% effective). Running Parthenon gives 2-3 GP = 2400-3600G. Failgold only worth if you desperately need gold in early game (butterfly effect).

I could make mistake in my analysis. If anyone have corrections - I am eager to hear!
 
It looks like I need only G Scientist for the Academy and other are not worth it.
Actually, an academy is often not worth it, bulbs are better.

Parthenon +50% (Great Wonder) + Pacifism +100% (Civic) may help. Are they worth it?
Pacifism is just great, especially in golden ages when you should be running tons of specialists.
 
Pacifism is just great, especially in golden ages when you should be running tons of specialists.
Hm... https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Golden_Age_(Civ4)

Golden Age adds +1C if there is 1C, +1H if there is 1H and doubles GP birth rate.

To run as much specialists as possible you may use:

* Castle system (unlimited Artists, Scientists, Merchants)
* Pacifism (+100% gpppt rate)
* Mercantilism (+1 free specialist in cities)

Additionally Representation gives 3gpppt per specialist.

Limiting factor is food. Probably it is worth to starve during Golden Age a bit... With 5 cities and 5 GPs for 8 turns of GA we collect 5*5*3*8 * (1base + 100%GA + 100%Pacifism) = 1800gpp. It's 3-4 GPs in ealy game or 1-2 in the middle.

* https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Mausoleum_of_Maussollos_(Civ4) prolongs GA by 50% (4T on Normal).
* https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Taj_Mahal_(Civ4) trigger GA.

As cost on GA increased with tries I wonder if it's possible to get first GA after Mausoleum by 1GP then next by 2GP and next by Taj_Mahal when it costs 3 GP...
 
Last edited:
Pacifism is very powerful if you set it up properly to generate GP quickly. usually you will need a few cities with your state religion, grow them up, and then start running as many specialists with Caste System as you can (even starving) in all the cities around the same time. Combining with a Golden Age gives the best effect. Sorta dependent on getting a religion and requires a bit of oversight to make sure it spreads to the right cities and timing the Golden Age. But it's pretty easy to farm 3-5 scientists this way PHI or not.

You can also focus on one city for the most part; pick a spot with as much food as possible (3+ food resources), build the NE there, make sure the religion you want to use for Pacifism is spread there. Grow it to happy cap and run as many specialists as it can without starving; over time it will generate several GPs. You can still combine it with a Golden Age, where you will starve it mercilessly like with the multiple city approach.

The bog standard way to get scientists for Lib path or Astro path is just run scientists with Libraries, Pacifism/GA or not. Get a few cities with sufficient food surplus (+4 or better at size 3 or 4) set up with libraries and running a pair of scientists. Don't take them off until that cities generates its GS, afterwards they can repurpose the pop and do something else. The key to this is doing it as EARLY as possible and starting scientist production at around the same time as much as possible in all the cities. If you run a pair of scientists in each city starting on the same turn, you'll gain a GS every 17 turns for each city that starts at the same time

i.e.
4 cities
all cities start running scientists on T90
city1: T107 - city goes back to growing/whipping and no longer running 2 scientists
city 2: T124
city 3: T141
city 4: T158

And then you would typically bulb Philo>Education (twice)>Lib or Machinery>Optics>Astro (twice). You can cut out one of the bulbs if you only get 3 scientists in time, try to skate by with only 2, etc.

There's a limit because it depends a lot on how quickly you can start all cities together based on REX and Writing date. but getting 2-4 scientists to use on the Lib or Astro path in time to still be useful should be doable if your land is conducive. It also possible to just cycle scientists between less (like a pair of) cities, but they can never stop running scientists for that to work.
 
Golden age +100% GP generation to the base rate in the city.
Paficism requires the city to have your religion. Again it's 100% bonus on your base rate.
Most on here will run a golden age and have 4-5 cities running 5-6 or merchants scientists. Some cities can be running scientists before this to build up some points.
Parth means dilution due to Great artist points.
National Epic in your GP farm also gives 100%. Great artist possible.

3 GS for edu and to bulb lib. 1 GM to help upgrade HA to Cuirs.

Overall I would rather capture parth unless I have marble. Don't get into the habit of spamming wonders for the sake of it. Lot of hammer investment to build too many wonders. Fail gold can be better at times.

Sometimes starting near an industrious AI can be great if they spam wonders.
 
Don't get into the habit of spamming wonders for the sake of it.
It is hard to get rid of bad habits )) There is some joy in racing for getting Great Wonder.

Game balance makes Great Wonders useless to build. An army and a conquest are more efficient way to win game and to secure border. Oracle (filling gap in tech via trading) or Pyramid (income/research booster) can help situationally, other are awaiting for your troops to conquer them.

I don't remember in watched Deity game recordings that anyone started Great Wonders. It is luxury. Seems Immortal still forgive extra spending on GW.
 
Back
Top Bottom