Anyone Else Disappointed in Carthage?

[CornPlanter]

So I was a little disappointed to find that Firaxis took easy way out and made a gimmicky civ that is heavily based upon Hannibal crossing the Alps.

They made Netherlands with tulips and Swedes with a Nobel prize. Carthage seems subtle and historical in comparison.

 

[Lyoncet]

Didn't someone determine that tulips were not actually part of Denmark's uniques? Agrees on Nobel Prize though. That one's a bit of a head-scratcher.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Not exactly. They showed us the Civilopedia page for the Polder, but they showed us the history section. The history section doesn't mention Tulips, but we don't know about the gameplay part.

I don't think Nobel Prize is necessarily overly gimmicky. It emphasizes the modern, peaceful and diplomatic Sweden.

 

[CYZ]

Didn't someone determine that tulips were not actually part of Denmark's uniques?

I'm fairly sure they didn't. Do they have mant tullips in Denark?


But I agree. It seems people are really tedious about correctness when it comes to ancient civs, but when it comes to modern civs this does not seem to matter so much anymore.

I think Carthage sounds pretty good, fun, balanced and accurate. Sure, the elephant isn't really unique to Carthage. But it's not like the Romans were the only ones using a Ballista either. So the elephans and mountain crossing are mostly based on what they are known for. The ship and free harbours still represent them as a naval power very well.

Let's be fair. There's alot more to Greek history than CS diplomacy and alot more to Japan than very determined millitary units. To be honest, I don't understand where the complaining about Carthage is coming from. They seem to be represented very well compared to others.

 

[Zhahz]

It's a game, so I really don't care about the historical accuracy. Their unique stuff intrigues me (especially moving over mountains), so that's all that really matters to me.

Exactly.

 

[Ribusprissin]

Frankly I'm disappointed Rome doesn't get the ability to raze capital cities.

 

[elprofesor]

Frankly I'm disappointed Rome doesn't get the ability to raze capital cities.

Yeah, nor turning the original hex to desert if they have salt in their empire.

 

[DutchJob]

I am seldom disappointed, you get what you give.

Harbours can be a b!tch to build in upstart cities with little production.

The mountain thingy is like a nice dessert.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

I really hoped they have taught the AI to use the crossing mountains abbility carefully. So it won't spam units and kill them in mountains.

Also if I tell a unit to cross a continent that the movement AI takes care not to kill my unit by ending it's turn on a mountain.

I'm curious if workers and great people can build on the mountain tiles. A road or railroad through mountains could be a great advantage.
I would love to place an academy on Krakatoa.

 

[Arkangelus]

Worth noting, that the African Forest Elephant will pass multiple upgrades through the mounted line - the one that will give most benefits to the extra flexibility of mountain crossing. In particular, the Fear ability from the elephants only requires you to be adjacent to an enemy unit, not attacking it - meaning right up until late in the game, if you move a Tank or Cavalry onto a mountain tile beside an entrenched unit, your Artillery and Bombers will gain a boost from it.

 

[Nyanko]

Worth noting, that the African Forest Elephant will pass multiple upgrades through the mounted line - the one that will give most benefits to the extra flexibility of mountain crossing. In particular, the Fear ability from the elephants only requires you to be adjacent to an enemy unit, not attacking it - meaning right up until late in the game, if you move a Tank or Cavalry onto a mountain tile beside an entrenched unit, your Artillery and Bombers will gain a boost from it.

How I understand it, the Fear promotion is active whenever, like the War Dance Promotion on the Maori Warriors

 

[_Calyx]

For those of us confused about the Dutch association with Tulips, its because tulip speculation crashed their economy.

 

[Lyoncet]

Just wante to rez this thread to point out that the manual entry on Dido is basically "A lot of plays got written about her." So at least my/our gripe about her ahistorical nature was shared by someone. Pitty (IMO) that they chose her anyways. Yeah, sometimes you gotta shake it up, but there are some places that are better to do such shaking than others.

 

[pspboy7]

You forget the God of the Sea pantheon with plus 1 production on fishing boats. Instant harbors and that can lead to decent production in coastal cities really early. I really agree about the focus on historical identity rather than reality. Hannibal made an early crossing and paid for it. Without the thousands of angry gauls waiting in the Po region he might not have recovered. He was hardly an expert at crossing mountains.

Combine that with the Celts being basically a British faction based on modern Celtic views and the Dido, Theodora picks and Firaxis did a really poor job of representing a number of civs in this expo. It was all about marketability.

I took God of the Seas ability and it made my coastal cities so awesome... Carthage should be dominate on continents and archipelago maps.

 

[Jnsen]

Carthages UA (and to some extent, the UU elephants) struck me as being lazy solutions to what they wanted to do. So I gave it some thought:
I feel it would be better if only a Great General could enter a mountain tile, but other units could enter a mountain tile that had a GG in it. I think this better simulates Hannibal leading his army through the Alps, rather than just a having a wall of elephants climbing over them.
Free harbors are a bit lazy as well, a UB replacing the harbor or the lighthouse had been a better idea.
Now, unless the past Civ games were completely wrong, mercenaries were a big part of Carthages armies. This strikes me as the perfect idea for a UA. A lazy solution would be to make units cheaper to purchase. Another idea might be either 1) the ability to buy units from allied (Militaristic) City states or 2) that all allied city states will give you units, although non-militaristic city states do so less frequently. Now that CS give unique units, this would certainly give that foreign, mercenary feel to a Punic army. There's even a fair chance you'd get elephants, if a UB would replace the ones we got.
I dunno, just some ideas I had.

 

[Securion]

The free harbors is perfect and feels accurate.
The elephants though... hmm...

 

[Lyoncet]

Carthages UA (and to some extent, the UU elephants) struck me as being lazy solutions to what they wanted to do. So I gave it some thought:
I feel it would be better if only a Great General could enter a mountain tile, but other units could enter a mountain tile that had a GG in it. I think this better simulates Hannibal leading his army through the Alps, rather than just a having a wall of elephants climbing over them.
Free harbors are a bit lazy as well, a UB replacing the harbor or the lighthouse had been a better idea.
Now, unless the past Civ games were completely wrong, mercenaries were a big part of Carthages armies. This strikes me as the perfect idea for a UA. A lazy solution would be to make units cheaper to purchase. Another idea might be either 1) the ability to buy units from allied (Militaristic) City states or 2) that all allied city states will give you units, although non-militaristic city states do so less frequently. Now that CS give unique units, this would certainly give that foreign, mercenary feel to a Punic army. There's even a fair chance you'd get elephants, if a UB would replace the ones we got.
I dunno, just some ideas I had.

I really like that mercenary idea. And yes, you're right; mercenaries were an important part of the Carthaginian forces.