1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Anyone Else Disappointed in Carthage?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CivilizedPlayer, May 23, 2012.

  1. elprofesor

    elprofesor Pluri-editing poster

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    (hint: I can type "Ñ")
    That's my point. We don't have confirmation of a carthaginian start bias, but it's almost certain that they'll start next to the coast; one UU and half of its UA turn around the sea, after all.
     
  2. HorribleHarald

    HorribleHarald Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    132
    I'm not so disappointed. Only that Dido is the leader instead of Hannibal. I prefer see real warlord than mythic character. Perhaps this is boring mumbling but I don't like gender quotas in video games.
     
  3. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,705
    The only thing I am disapointed about is that you take 50 HP damage if you stay on a mountain Thinx that nobody is going to move over a mountain because of this
     
  4. CivilizedPlayer

    CivilizedPlayer Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    222
    One point about the whole mountain thing though...

    Everyone's talking about how there's been so many times they could've used that. I'm in the same boat. However, I think this situation will be a lot less likely with Carthage. Playing as them, I'm going to focus on a large navy (with some quinqueremes, of course), and use my melee naval units to conquer cities. Given that, it's going to be pretty unusual for me to desperately need to cross a mountain. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but I think it's fair to say that land units (while important) are going to be less crucial than we're used to, and because of this I think we're overestimating the value of crossing mountains.
     
  5. Haig

    Haig Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,538
    Location:
    Finland
    Civilization's Unique ability and units/buildings has a big role, but I love how other aspects are so customizable in Civ V.

    Want a trade superpower carthage with global dominions? Commerce and Patronage social policies.
    Get the Hannibal thing going with Honor.
    etc.

    And add to this religion's beliefs.. :)
     
  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    15,636
    Now that all embarked units have defense, I'll be less inclined to wish I could cross mountains. Previously, taking a unit into the ocean unescorted to get around obstacles was a risk.
     
  7. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Very true. Hadn't thought of that.
     
  8. HeraldtheGreat

    HeraldtheGreat King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    906
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Carthage should have:
    1.Lost the elephant
    2.Added the harbor UB with no maintenance
    3.Lost the mountain crossing bonus
    4.Should be amazingly rich nonetheless
    Also, as I stated in another thread, Civ 5 focused too heavily on Cannae and ignores Carthaginian trade and exploration and just on conflict with the Romans. :undecide::undecide:
     
  9. Nyanko

    Nyanko Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    432
    Only the elephant and the mountian crossing ability directly reference the Punic Wars. The quegmarine (sp?) is to represent the advantage that Carthage had with its Ikea navy, the free harbours to represent the trade which Carthage gained its wealth through
     
  10. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Except, this time, they gave them a ship (when they had essentially no navy by Cannae), gave them an Elephant (even though they were all dead by Cannae), gave them a UA related to sea trade (even though their Sicilian and Sardinian ports were all gone by Cannae), and got rid of Hannibal (who was the general at Cannae).

    I think people are focusing too much on the mountain crossing bonus. It's corny, but it's a small part.
     
  11. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I believe the point would have been better made if instead of "Cannae," HaraldTheGreat would have said "focused on Carthage as it related to Rome." Dido's best known for 2 things (one of which is almost certainly mythical, the other of which is very likely mythical): the cow skin story, and the fact that she gets spurned by Aeneas in the Aeneid, which was used to explain its relationship with Rome. Elephants were emblematic of Carthage's conflicts with Rome. Hannibal crossed the mountains once, and it was to attack Rome. It's the same sort of (IMO) skewed perception that leads to things like the Aztec being a go-to civ. They were leagues behind various South American civilizations in terms of technology, culture, historical influence, dominance, etc., but they were the guys who showed up when the Spanish landed. It's not a surprising trend, and also not a particularly troubling one (just a result of various human perception biases), but it's a bummer when they happen.

    All just in my humble opinion, of course. And of course since Carthage and Rome were pretty much locked in a contest for supremacy, a lot of Carthage was defined by Rome (and vice versa), but there are plenty of good – better, even – ways of depicting Carthage than "in what ways did they interact with this one other civilization that we're all obsessed with?"
     
  12. snipperrabbit!!

    snipperrabbit!! Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,396
    Sorry, but it will not be a small part when I'll send my tanks ! And I don't plan to finish a turn on a mountain. Embarked units only retains 50hp so they'll have to heal after disembarkation when elephants, knights, whatever fast unit will be passing through and not ending on a mountain tile.
     
  13. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    You're assuming there's a movement cost for Hannibalic mountain crossing. I suspect there won't be. It's good in some situations, but it's still highly situational. It's not the more important part of their ability.
     
  14. Nyanko

    Nyanko Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    432
    Three things. Shes also the alleged founder of Carthage, sister to famed Tyrian king, Pygmalion (which is how I knew her).
     
  15. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    The problem is, the initial story was that she was a goddess, not a sister of a Tyrian King. Dido the mortal woman from Tyre was slowly adopted over the last two centuries BC in Greek and Roman worlds (it possibly came back to Carthage because there was a surprising amount of cultural infusion). I have a problem with her for the same reason I had a problem with Brennus, Ragnar, and Gilgamesh. I would have the same problem with Rome's leader being Romulus (which they would never do, which shows you Dido's not a good choice).

    That being said, they found a female voice actor to speak Phoenician. That in itself is spectacular. I'm willing to pretty much forgive everything because of that.
     
  16. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    The founding of Carthage is the same thing as the cow skin story. So we're back to two. :p
     
  17. HeraldtheGreat

    HeraldtheGreat King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    906
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I know, I just think they emphasized too much on the second punic war since that was just a small part of Carthaginian history.Besides, Carthage lost the second punic war anyways! :p
     
  18. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    It's also worth pointing out that Elephants, while famous from the Second Punic War, were not really used much during the war. They were actually used against the Romans more in the First Punic War. They were used by the Barcids to conquer Spain and to subdue the African interior.

    I think the Numidians were a better choice because Javelin-throwing Berber light cavalry is more unique and interesting than Elephants, which every Mediterranean power besides the Romans seemed to have by this point. But I don't think it's necessarily a Punic War vs. Rest of Carthaginian History issue.
     
  19. HeraldtheGreat

    HeraldtheGreat King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    906
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I just don't think it's worth adding in the UA, though i'm probably overreacting and there's no point in complaining anymore. :(
     
  20. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Well, I'm not sure what you meant by "worth." It didn't cost them much to add it, they probably didn't take away something else to add it, and it probably doesn't affect balance much. It's just something there that I suspect people will use for fun at first, but will only need one in every five games playing as Carthage.
     

Share This Page