Anyone else think that AI has been toned down for the release?

skimming about documentation of wesnoth, apparently this tactical ai can deal with 1upt, zone of control, multiple movements, terrain bonuses, something like bombardment, retreat and healing (ie combat is not by necessity to the death) though apparently not true ranged combat, only something similar to 1-tile range bombardment (where the opponent can fight back only if also ranged).

also includes various types of damage and resistances to various kinds of damage.

Panzer General however did include this and ranged damage, as well as a bunch of additional complications.

So I don't think more complex combat is a good excuse if the AI is poor.

Keeping on the "I told you so" track :) (j/k), there were some here that voiced their concerns pre-release. Specifically, a lot of people were debating and were excited about the new features (1upt and diplomacy, to be exact) and how that would revolutionize Civ. But some did not look at it from the AI point of view (only from the gamer point of view). If the AI could not handle something as no-brainer as a SoD, how could you expect them to handle something more complex as 1upt? Regarding diplomacy, sure it sounded cool for us to use but there were concerns voiced by some as to how well the AI would use them.

But I think we have a good starting point to vastly improve this game. The pieces are there (no need add in stuff from Civ4), they just needs to be re-worked.
 
If somebody would like to test this with me. It would be very intresting to see if any of these changes I did to King difficulty improves the game or not. The 1up might be the biggest cause of the problem but I smell issues with other areas mainly in Happiness / Unit maintenace cost / Building maintenace costs for the AI as these are the hardest to balance for the player much harder than CIV4 ever was, so if the AI is lacking in this area it can kill the whole game.

I have uploaded 2 files both should be unzipped in

Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\Gameplay\XML\GameInfo

Remember to backup old files.

Handicap - is the AI changes
Game Speed - Small change to Epic speed, I just changed research cost to 200 from 150% (Balances research better with cost of production)
 

Attachments

There's no way a game with eight difficulty settings is intentionally made easier to cater to new players. That's why there are levels 1 through 4. There is no inherent discouragement for being brand new to the game and finding level 2 or 3 the most comfortable. They can see the harder levels and know they have to learn more and get better to be able to play them. I could buy your argument if there was only two or three difficulties available, but with eight it would be insane to dumb anything down.

The AI is mostly inconsistent on my end. I do notice that some civs are always more aggressive/successful (China, Rome) but even on Prince they can't really keep up with me and my mega army of five units. In the last three games, Rome and I butt heads, and he consistently has double my army size, but also consistently loses to my positioning/defense. Solution for the next game is to try the harder difficulty level.

I've seen some really obvious AI problems, though. NPC Great Generals stay in their capitals. I've seen as many as three just sitting in the capital when I come to conquer it later in the game, and never on the field of battle.

I've also experienced severe tech imbalances (usually in my favor) on Prince. Gandhi declared war on me even though he was still using iron-based units and I'd moved on to aluminum.

The previews featuring cool things like barbarian infantry make me think the AI is just a bit buggy right now. The highest I've seen barbarians go is spearman, even in 2000 AD, and the fact that they like to charge at a city ferociously and then stand around outside while you shoot at them with your city makes me think there are pretty simple bugs happening. With the 1UPT feature, I have a feeling some of it is pathfinding-related. I have to order workers multiple times on certain tasks for various reasons. Imagine the AI having to sort through all of that. We should also expect barbarians to save up two or three units and then attack together--that would warrant immediate removal of encampments as a serious threat, rather than a minor nuisance/gold source.

Finally, I would like to remind everyone that the AI breaks even in the greatest games. The Brood War expansion introduced a bug to Starcraft where an AI player only built a few workers and then stopped. It might've been one missing punctuation mark in the programming, but that bug ended up being there for a very long time. My friends and I were never quite satisfied with b.net compstomping because we'd always find one or two AI players had suffered from this bug. Hearing people say that some civs don't expand reminded me of this.
 
There was a list of testers in the manual, with lots of CFC regulars among them. They must be the best people to was whether post-release AI feels different to them.
 
I also noticed that the AI is quite erratic.
I played two games as Ghandi on Prince - and both times I was WTH pwnd by a single AI. Then I played two games as Alexander on the same difficulty level and maptype (Continents) - and the AI behaved as if it was braindead.

So what happened exactly?
Well, the first game with Ghandi was in fact my very first CIV5 round and I had no strategy whatsoever, I just wanted to tinker a bit. I had three archers and three cities, he had 3 Legions, 2 Horsement and a Catapult. A well deserved defeat.

Then I played as Alexander, just pumped settlers and grabbed as much land with as much luxury ressources as possible. By the time the first Washington DOWed me, I was well ahead techwise and his army was simply vaporized by my fortified (Walls + Castle) frontline city. I left the game around industrial era, because itwas clear that I had won (already triple the points of the second best AI) and I wanted to give Ghandi another try.

This game was brutal. I was corned by an extremly hostile Germany and soon Bismark attacked me. Despite having only few less units than him, I suffered a horrible defeat - he made a brilliant flanking attempt, outmaneuvering my frontline spearmen, crushing 3 archers and a geat general with two Horsemen. After retreating my units, he swarmed and sourrounded my first city, cutting it off and using his archers to destroy it within two turns. Afterwards he waited to get two Catapults and soon I was crushed because he used focused fire on any resistance I brought up against him.

Next game was Alexander again - the AI: braindead. Napolean was about one screen SSE from me. When I had four cities, he still had Paris and nothing more. A few turns later he DOWed me (guess my third city which was next to his capital provoked him) - and with 3 archers, I beat the living hell out of his army of 10 warriors and 3 horsemen. At one point he was just walking left and right in front of my completly undefended city. He did not attack it a single time. So after his men are dead, he offers me peace, including his (meanhwile founded) second city. I accept, because I am curious where that one might be. The area around his capital was incredible fertile - he had rivers, wheat, silk, dye, ivory, marble, gold, silver, gems, but I hadn't seen any french culture with my scouts.
So where was his second city? Yep, about four screens away on another continent in the middle of a desert. :lol:

Same with barbarians: Sometimes they just walk back and fourth, leaving undefendet cities alone, ignoring wounded units they could kill, not bothering with any tile improvements. The other time they gang up with three units and burn down the area around my capital to the very last improvment - and while they are already on it, they kill 2 warriors and my only scout.

In conclusion: There is definetly something fishy with the AI.
 
Some Early results:

The change to the Barbarian range and removing the bonus for the player and lowering the AI bonus was perfect, now Barbarians are a problem you have to watch out for, they come and steal workers and you need atleast two units to take down a fortfied barbarian camp either for the flanking bonus or to let one unit heal or watch for a new unit to spawn. With raging barbarians checked they spawn units farily fast so once there is a camp close to your cities you need to take it out or you can get into problems, works perfectly in my opinioin.

The AI early growth seems much better. They expand a little faster than you. The AI also leave one unit as defence protecting its worker and explore with the other one. AI also build more units in the early game.
 
Yeah. The AI is inconsistent. I have seen some amazing war campaigns by Askia and GANDHI (yes!). And in another game Askia was a total pushover.

I don't know what gives...
 
I just think they over hyped it.. and everyone bought into the hype... seems to be the going trend with this civ release IMHO
 
Next time you see an AI doing really well, watch how much production it had in and around its first few cities. My guess is this is the secret ingredient, and I definitely HAVE seen the AI do extremely well when it manages to do well in production. Part of what's really hurting the AI beyond that is that it spams trade posts, which slows population growth, which slows science and gold production (from 'tiles worked').

So in other words, if the AI starts with lots of hills nearby, it seems to do much, much better: it's forced to avoid trade post spam in favor of mines. That should be one lesson on how to tweak the AI.
 
On my first game of Civ 4, on normal difficulty (Noble, if I remember), I was utterly destroyed.

On my first game of Civ 5 (that's ongoing), on normal difficulty (Prince), there's only one enemy Capital left. And my worst enemy is the unhappiness of my (ungrateful) people.

Curiously, I began this game of Civ 5 expecting to be crushed on sight. Weird, to say the least.

There's definitely something very wrong with Civ 5's AI. It's not what it meant to be, or what it supposedly was during the beta previews/reviews.

Just... Weird.
 
What you are all saying in this thread does sound weird. Will they ever really improve the AI then? That is the question I ask myself now.


Meh, I should just go ahead and use paypal to buy it from Stream, I really wanna play this. But at the same time, I kinda wanna give it some time, see what kind of things they may fix with next patches, see if a boxed version will be out in Brazil or not at all, etc. Can't say I like to buy stuff online, call it being antiquated.
 
I wonder if this big variance in what everyone is experiencing is the result of the personality flavours the AIs have...
 
I also noticed that the AI is quite erratic.
I played two games as Ghandi on Prince - and both times I was WTH pwnd by a single AI. Then I played two games as Alexander on the same difficulty level and maptype (Continents) - and the AI behaved as if it was braindead.

So what happened exactly?
Well, the first game with Ghandi was in fact my very first CIV5 round and I had no strategy whatsoever, I just wanted to tinker a bit. I had three archers and three cities, he had 3 Legions, 2 Horsement and a Catapult. A well deserved defeat.

Then I played as Alexander, just pumped settlers and grabbed as much land with as much luxury ressources as possible. By the time the first Washington DOWed me, I was well ahead techwise and his army was simply vaporized by my fortified (Walls + Castle) frontline city. I left the game around industrial era, because itwas clear that I had won (already triple the points of the second best AI) and I wanted to give Ghandi another try.

This game was brutal. I was corned by an extremly hostile Germany and soon Bismark attacked me. Despite having only few less units than him, I suffered a horrible defeat - he made a brilliant flanking attempt, outmaneuvering my frontline spearmen, crushing 3 archers and a geat general with two Horsemen. After retreating my units, he swarmed and sourrounded my first city, cutting it off and using his archers to destroy it within two turns. Afterwards he waited to get two Catapults and soon I was crushed because he used focused fire on any resistance I brought up against him.

Next game was Alexander again - the AI: braindead. Napolean was about one screen SSE from me. When I had four cities, he still had Paris and nothing more. A few turns later he DOWed me (guess my third city which was next to his capital provoked him) - and with 3 archers, I beat the living hell out of his army of 10 warriors and 3 horsemen. At one point he was just walking left and right in front of my completly undefended city. He did not attack it a single time. So after his men are dead, he offers me peace, including his (meanhwile founded) second city. I accept, because I am curious where that one might be. The area around his capital was incredible fertile - he had rivers, wheat, silk, dye, ivory, marble, gold, silver, gems, but I hadn't seen any french culture with my scouts.
So where was his second city? Yep, about four screens away on another continent in the middle of a desert. :lol:

Same with barbarians: Sometimes they just walk back and fourth, leaving undefendet cities alone, ignoring wounded units they could kill, not bothering with any tile improvements. The other time they gang up with three units and burn down the area around my capital to the very last improvment - and while they are already on it, they kill 2 warriors and my only scout.

In conclusion: There is definetly something fishy with the AI.

Excatly my experience as well:

on King:
AI kicked my ass in 3 games in a row, one game I had War Chariots then Rome and Arabia teamed up against me with Legions and crossbowmen and longswordmen...

4th game, AI braindead, Gandhi not building a single settler. He also didn't build workers before 500 BC. Also other AIs with 2-3 cities while I was on 5-6. Significant tech advantage, could build every wonder I can imagine.


It seems whether or not I get a challenging AI is dependant on how the coinflip of the AI ends up, If heads, they are braindead, if tails ---> challenging.
 
I am not experiencing the same thing as ya guys

I just beat the king level mode, continents and standard map size with rome with a space race victory.

Only one nation kept up with me in technology and military power. But he was on a different continent and conquering all his neighbors. If he was on the same continent as me my game might of been harder.

On my continent my mechanized infantry faced weak united like crossbow men, musket men, riflemen and other weak units

I am going to try emperor mode now. I am probably gonna choose a map that has everyone on the same continent
 
My hope is:

They adjusted the difficulty levels last minute, because they thought it was too difficult. But now it turns out, they didn't test it enough and they overdid it accidentally.

I know that it's tempting to believe that, but is it really more plausible to believe in an intentionally (or accidentally) crippling of a key feature of the game, or is it perhaps more plausible to believe that the AI in the test/preview builds had some ridiculous bonuses which helped it along (which would explain the previews mentioning a "perhaps too aggressive" AI), and that Ed Beach and his team had hoped to replace those with smart AI programming until the release, but weren't able to pull it off?

There was a list of testers in the manual, with lots of CFC regulars among them. They must be the best people to was whether post-release AI feels different to them.

Usually, as a beta-tester, you have to sign an NDA that doesn't allow you to talk about internals of the testing process, even after it's finished (which it might not be yet).
 
Back
Top Bottom