Anyone Have a Rational Explaination?

[BarbarianHunter]

This game is from Disgustipated's Norway Civ of the Week save file. So if you happen to be playing it, don't look @ this.

So far as I know City States one is suzerain of do not exert loyalty. And my nearest city is some ways off. I have half a mind to buy a field cannon and see if I can make a go of it.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Virdrago]

Do you have Amani as Suzerain of a CS there? Her promotion with 2 loyalty to foreign cities within 9 tiles would do it

 

[leandrombraz]

Aside from Amani, seems like Montezuma and Shaka got the city and decided to keep it as a free city, assuming the AI does that. I can't think of a reason why the city wouldn't go for them (Dark Age?). Amani might be enough to surpass Scotland and Rome but even them it seems weird.

I'll wait into someone smarter than me do the math...

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Wow. You guys are right about Amani. And I think it's really weird too that the +2 loyalty flipped the city. The Aztec and Shaka are indeed in dark ages and while Rome and Scotland are in normal ages, they are 9 tiles away. But it's still weird.

 

[shetoldmetodoit]

Aside from Amani, seems like Montezuma and Shaka got the city and decided to keep it as a free city, assuming the AI does that. I can't think of a reason why the city wouldn't go for them (Dark Age?). Amani might be enough to surpass Scotland and Rome but even them it seems weird.

I'll wait into someone smarter than me do the math...

Yeah definitely odd - Let's hope it's a glitch or just something random that wasn't suppose to happen anyways. Like last time when setting up my electric drum set and the light went off.

 

[Victoria]

What precisely is your issue?
Haddington at 9 pop is the killer city currently and why it’s showing the higher pressure on turn 312
The other cities have such low pop amd in a dark age mean they do not impress.

 

[leandrombraz]

What precisely is your issue?
Haddington at 9 pop is the killer city currently and why it’s showing the higher pressure on turn 312
The other cities have such low pop amd in a dark age mean they do not impress.

How OP got the city? Shouldn't the city go to Scotland then? Is Amani's 2 loyalty enough to surpass the influence of a 9 pop city at 8 distance in a normal era? I get that the other 3 Civs are basically null, their influence is too low to count, so any influence will be higher than theirs but Scotland seems to have enough to surpass Amani.

Something that I still don't understand on loyalty is this:

Where this numbers come from? How he got 18?

 

[Victoria]

Where this numbers come from? How he got 18?

Yes, quite possibly through Amani.
As I understand it the numbers only show and start counting once a city is free. The numbers are used to decide who the city flips to. Once the city has flipped the numbers remain and get appended to if it goes free again, well that’s how I currently understand it through the testing I have done.
18 would assume the city has been free for 9 turns and without doing sums it looks like the numbers match roughly if Haddington is 8 tiles away.
... an interesting strategy while around low pop cities... if you could chop in food to retain the city.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

To be more precise, my initial question was how Chalco originally flipped with none of my Norwegian cities within 9 tiles (in fact the closest city was quite some ways off). This struck me as odd. Well, really odd actually, considering the non-Norwegian city cluster around Chalco. So I posted the query.

Then some folks came up with the theory that perhaps dark ages and Amani’s +2 loyalty from being placed in Babylon must have somehow flipped the city to Norway. Which turned out to be the case.

I would imagine that some combination of Kwadukuza, Scotland’s Haddington, and my +2 from Amani must have done the initial flip to free city. Then after some time, when the city flipped from free status to requesting to join a civ, Amani’s +2 must have been the dominant loyalty force in the area.

My theory is that this must have taken quite some time, but have not done the math. I’m thinking back to back running dark ages of at least 2 eras for both the Aztec and Shaka.

In summary: It’s was, and still is, damned peculiar.

Spoiler :

 

[Victoria]

My theory is that this must have taken quite some time

I'm not so sure about the time.... one of 2 things has happened as Chalco indicates it is originally Aztec
1. The Aztecs settled there and the city did not grow from 1 pop, Haddingtons pressure of 1.8 (currently) would have flipped the city to free and then its 1.8 per turn versus your 2.0 per turn meant you now get it.... but now pressure is higher
2. The Aztecs settled and the Zulu's conquered and it flipped with the same situation afterward.

The pressure formula is not that simple and its more about the ration of 1.8:1 but the key thing being its more.
Without a turn by turn screen shot or logs from the last 10 turns we will never know for sure but one of the above is the likely reason, both quite similar

I really do need to write that loyalty guide sometime. I'll update my signature to include the loyalty thread so at least there is a reference until then.

@BarbarianHunter is that an adequate explanation?

Kudos goes to @leandrombraz and @Virdrago , not me.

but Scotland seems to have enough to surpass Amani.

A 9 pop city at a distance of 8 is 20% of 9 which is 1.8 versus Amani's 2 which does not count distance
The irony is that once flipped to Norway the +2 is lost and is +1 for local pop so now its 1.8 vs 1 as opposed to 1.8 vs 2 before the flip

the diagram shows it was 9 turns due to the steady +2 accumulation by Amani... but Haddington must have grown in that 9 turns or it would be 16.2 (9*1.8)... seems like about 3 turns ago it grew. If you work it out you can only really get 14.8 or 14.6 but there is more complicated decimals involved I will not go into because we cannot work out.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

@BarbarianHunter is that an adequate explanation?

Well said, and consistent with the scientific method.

If Norway hadn't had me so uninspired (for real or imagined reasons), I could have taken the opportunity to really spice up the game. I should have bought a couple field cannons and knights and seen to it that the loyalty measure become more favorable.

 

[leandrombraz]

the diagram shows it was 9 turns due to the steady +2 accumulation by Amani... but Haddington must have grown in that 9 turns or it would be 16.2 (9*1.8)... seems like about 3 turns ago it grew. If you work it out you can only really get 14.8 or 14.6 but there is more complicated decimals involved I will not go into because we cannot work out.
View attachment 497569

So this numbers are accumulated loyalty, not loyalty per turn? 2 loyalty from Amani over 9 turns = 18? I was trying to read it as a per turn thing.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

So this numbers are accumulated loyalty, not loyalty per turn? 2 loyalty from Amani over 9 turns = 18? I was trying to read it as a per turn thing.

Yes, accumulated. As Victoria pointed out, though, the numbers don't get reset to zero after the Free City is conquered/joins someone else. So on a second bout of freedom, the past accumulation carries on.

Second, though, the Free City will only join someone if cumulative pressure brings it's Loyalty to Free City status down to zero. Then at that stage it joins the civ with the highest cumulative influence totals.

 

[Victoria]

Second, though, the Free City will only join someone if cumulative pressure brings it's Loyalty to Free City status down to zero. Then at that stage it joins the civ with the highest cumulative influence totals.

Free cities rarely remain free though. They lack the +20 a CS gets. They become free in a ravaged state amd with low pop due to being taken or just purely because they have flipped already.
The way there is a cumulative memory is a bit odd and I have had a city flip to Egypt even after Egypt has been wiped output it’s rare. I’m not sure if this has changed in the latest patch, I’ll test it all amd try and produce something comprehensive.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Free cities rarely remain free though. They lack the +20 a CS gets. They become free in a ravaged state amd with low pop due to being taken or just purely because they have flipped already.

Yes, normally they could only stay Free City if they flipped during a Dark Age or flipped after a conquest, or their first choice civ refused to accept them. I've only seen it happen for a prolonged period with edge-of-the-map isolated cities with enough internal population to resist the rather distant foreign influences.

 

[Victoria]

Mechanically, this is the reason why... free cities get +10 loyalty for being free.. but typically suffer -20 pressure

While City states get +20 and +2 loyalty per envoy