[AoE Suggestion] streamlining Great Commander system.

[Joey Diamond]

This is more or less suggestions to make Great Commander an actually reward unit that can bolster your army and helps turn the tide of battle instead of being a overglorified baby that needs some serious sitting before starting to be any of use. Also some buffs so AI can have fun with it even with their limited intelligence.

-Commanders resurrects at capital when killed. When it does, applied wounded promotion that chain them in place with a very low chance of wear off each turn. Because AIs are really terrible with keeping their commander from dying and normally, military figurehead aren't supposed to be busy dying in the frontline anyway, they would just retreat and regroup(or gets eaten by Calabim lord).

-Commanders gains XP from any attacks in the same tile of his, not just from units under his command. Because the XP gain rate from their minions is just painfully abysmal and it's logical from having commander become more experienced just by observing battles. Not sure if this can be done from coding perspective but if it can't, just give commanders trickle XP like heroes but stop at 50 points.

-All units under Commander gain either 1 strength OR +20% strength AND +1XP per combat from the get-go, no promotion needed. I think there's a lot difference between having an unorganized mob and having a coherent and competent military structure. I also disliked that the commander doesn't have any immediate useful ability and most of them got locked behind a broken XP system.

-Combining Command Limit and Command Range into one promotion lines. This is pure overcomplicate and pointless. Command Limit was always good because having more units under command means more XP for the commander. But then there are much more useful promos that directly affects your army and combining with commander's slow XP rate naturally leaves Command Range untouched. I'd say just merge them and call it Authority I II III or something.

-Free specialized commander promotions immediately selectable once you have the appropriate tech (can only choose one per commander):
---Melee Commander, available by default. Having a hardened veteran corp as his personal guards, the commander gain +4 attack strength on top of their usual 5 defensive strength and gives +15% strength to melee minions. No longer have access to Commander Defence line (+2 DEF STR per lvl). Instead, melee specialized commander gain access to Commander Close Combat line, grants +2 combat strength per level. This is purely for Users and AIs with a more hands-on approach to combats. I think it would nice to have more variety in playstyles.
---Cavalry Commander, available with Horseback Riding. Gives Commander a shiny new horse to rides, gain +2 movement. Gives +10% withdraw chance and +15% strength to cavalry minions. that movement buff so we could keep our commander up with the horses, this problem is especially glaring when you playing as Hippus. All your units and core strategy revolves around cavalries so the commander got totally left out, not to mentioned Hippus commander art is actually riding a horse yet didn't count as one.
---Archer Commander, available with Archery. Given command of a personal elite archer corp, the commander can perform ranged attack with 4 ranged strength and 50% ranged limit. Gives +1 ranged strength, +10% ranged limit and +20% defensive strength to archer minions.
---Ranger Commander, available with Hunting. Commander gain +1 movement, ignore terrain cost, +1 visibility range, +1 perception, Remove access to any siege related promotions. Give +10% strength, +15% forest strength and +15% strength against animals and beasts to recon minions. Just like cavalry commander, all those movement buffs so it won't fall behind too much.
---Garrison Commander, available with Warfare. Commander gain +50% defensive strength, double fortification bonus (like Defensive promotion), a new ability called Defensive Rally which is just a Nature I's Tree Top Defense but requires either a fort or a city instead of trees. Gives 30% defensive strength, double fortification bonus and suffer 20% less collateral damage to melee and archer minions.
---Siege Commander, available with both Warfare and Construction. Commander gain a new ability called Breach Order which buff units in the same tile with +20% city attack strength but gives Fatigue debuff(-10% strength) afterward. Gives 20% city attack strength to all minions. gives +20% collateral damage, +10% city bombard damage to siege and naval minions.
---Mystic Commander, available with Knowledge Of The Ether. Gives 0.50 enhance natural XP gain rate, +20% strength, +20% spell resist, +10% spell damage to arcane minions.
---Pious Commander, available by having any state religions. Gives 0.50 enhance natural XP gain rate, +20% strength, +15% chance to convert defeated living units to disciple minions.

Maybe having these and remove all arbitrary promotion lines except Battle Commander, Field Commander, Field Medic and Field Survey because they are either very underwhelming, locked behind a promotion we didn't need and being some novelty promotions to dump a level on.

Anyway, here's my random thought on reworking commander system and sorry for the wall of text.

 

[azatote]

Many good ideas in here, though I think they may be a bit extreme.
I agree it would be better to give the commanders more survival chances and more impact from start. If needed for balance (and I think it will), we can compensate the new upsides by increasing the XP requirement to create great commanders.
I am against making the commanders immortal; if an army is destroyed, it is not unlikely that its general is killed or captured as well. Commanders already have a low chance to defend the stack, we can additionally give them a defensive withdrawal chance.
Why not making the great commander gain XP by itself like adepts and priests. Otherwise, maybe make XP gain faster on the first few levels.
I agree that commanders should already give their minions a bonus on level 1. Make them start with battle command 1, optionally improve their minions' XP gain (though I feel XP gain is already a bit too high).
Command range is indeed useless in 98% of cases (its only use is when sending suicide attacks deep in enemy territory while the commander stays safely behind, or when you're commanding Nilhorn giants, and even so it is an expensive promotion for a small effect), an Authority line combining command limit and command range would make sense.
As for the specialized promotions, the general idea is good but the effects are again too powerful in my opinion. Besides, I am against giving every commander the possibility to gain attack strength or ranged strength; this should be restricted to civ UUs.
Some civs would clearly enjoy a new commander UU. You spoke about the Hippus, simply give their commanders mounted as secondary unit combat and they'll have the extra movement required to follow Hippus horsemen (plus they will certainly be able to pillage; but they will need to be denied access to most cavalry promotions). Other possibilities would be a Ljosalfar UU with a ranged attack, a Doviello UU giving large bonuses to commanded animals (the gods know their wolves need that, given how weak they are). (plus a Svart UU with 2 attack strength and marksman to finish units injured by Alazkan's illusion? might be overpowered though)
When you think that great commanders are weak with the current system, also remember that their greatest strength does not lie with a commander always followed by the same veteran units, but when it commands cannon fodder. Each time a horsehockey Bannor demagog dies, it frees a slot in the commander's squad to be taken by another Demagog, so that a large number of kamikaze units can benefit from the commander's bonuses in the same battle. That's why commander promotions should not be too powerful.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly I think you guys should take a look at how commanders and armies work in HOTK and try to replicate that.

I'll give you a TLDR description of how they work there:

In that mod generals are great people that can be born but also bought from a sort of mercenary like interface. They each have stats relating to the main unit categories (infantry, archers etc.) as well as a stat that says how many units they can lead.
They also have faction and religious loyalty percentages so they won't join just anyone.

Generals work by creating legions. Each legion contains between 1 and 3-4 (expandable by promotions) units all of which must be of the same unitcombat. When creating a legion the GG automatically attaches to one of those units as a promotion. When that unit is beaten the general jumps to another one in the legion. When the entire legion is beaten the general either dies (low odds), escapes (moderate odds) or is captured.
Captured leaders appear in a special prisoners tab and can be exchanged for money or bribed/recruited.

All of these have their own unique interface pages that you really need to see for your self.

Generals get various promotions drawn from the units in their legion getting XP but with a much higher transfer rate than AOE has. And units in that legion get all those promotions transferred over to them for as long as they are close enough to the general.


So your generals are a permanent presence in the game and can switch sides, be captured and stuff and lead small elite bands of troops to beat up enemy stacks.

You guys should really play a game of the mod to see how it all works though.

 

[Joey Diamond]

Yeah! I totally play the s**t out of that mod. I would rank HOTK 2nd behind Fall from Heaven in terms of uniqueness.

I first having a thought about how the promotion that are already inside the mod could be rework but now you said it. HOTK generals system would fits very well in fantasy RPG setting too.

And @azatote I completely forgot about being able to swap unit out of command at will. I think I remembered there's one version where after that unit use all their movement point, it won't be able to join army unitl the next turn. I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

However those seemingly OP suggestion wasn't entirely about us players, it's about making AI atleast a little bit competent when handling such a high value unit. It's always feels a little bit sad and anticlimactic when AI marches their own commander to certain death without even trying to provide a decent challenge. And I refuse to impose artificial difficulty on myself by playing anything higher than noble.

 

[azatote]

In fact, a unit cannot join or leave a commander after attacking. However, if a commanded unit dies while attacking, you can assign another one to the commander, therein lies the trick (it's the same for Orthus axe for example).
I never played HOTK, but what you describe about it is very promising. General capture would be interesting, maybe not for bribing them (I'm not sure a lizardman commander would accept to command elves, nor that the elves would accept a lizardman commander) but at least to gain a ransom. The legion system could work well too. I'm not convinced by adding commanders to the mercenary interface though, but it's up to discussion (or maybe limit it to one or a couple of civs, like the Grigori).
As for difficulty, the AI is indeed not nearly as good as a human player (some mechanics are especially ill managed, like the Ljosalfar world spell) but as for me, I consider artificial difficulty as a challenge, and a way to keep the game interesting; when you have no difficulty outperforming the AI in everything, it's just boring.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

In fact, a unit cannot join or leave a commander after attacking. However, if a commanded unit dies while attacking, you can assign another one to the commander, therein lies the trick (it's the same for Orthus axe for example).
I never played HOTK, but what you describe about it is very promising. General capture would be interesting, maybe not for bribing them (I'm not sure a lizardman commander would accept to command elves, nor that the elves would accept a lizardman commander) but at least to gain a ransom. The legion system could work well too. I'm not convinced by adding commanders to the mercenary interface though, but it's up to discussion (or maybe limit it to one or a couple of civs, like the Grigori).
As for difficulty, the AI is indeed not nearly as good as a human player (some mechanics are especially ill managed, like the Ljosalfar world spell) but as for me, I consider artificial difficulty as a challenge, and a way to keep the game interesting; when you have no difficulty outperforming the AI in everything, it's just boring.

It's not THE mercenary interface but a different similar one. As I said, take a crack at the mod. It comes with pre made scenarios that throw you right into the action so you can see everything in the first 10 minutes.

As for artificial difficulty I find it to be a necessary evil. I would very much love to see an AI that is actually smart enough not to need it. But with a complex game such as this one it just isn't too realistic as the required calculations would, even if programmed make for very long turn times.

 

[Calavente]

Hotk general would be interesting, but I think there could already be some ways to improve what we have
(please remember that General are here to replace the "old general system" where the general attaches to a unit to give it : +1str, +1xp per combat, +25%xp per combat, + other benefits??).
I thus think that the xp gain is currently ok for the minion once the 1str promotion is acquired.
and for battle efficiency, it is somehow ok... but only after the 3rd promotion (1for xp, 2 for battle)... afterwards it's only bonus.

- Generals could get defensive withdrawal (the same as pegasus and loki), but only once per turn. (or like the heroic promotion in MoM : 1 turn invincibility, and if lost, takes some time to be brought back)
- Generals need an immediat bonus : I like azatote idea of giving "battlefield tactics I" : 10%str is already big for a lvl 0 general.
- General need more early xp gain : maybe give them a promotion similar to mages/disciples : chance to gain xp/turn, diminishing return per level : it would boost early levels of Generals, but have low impact later ingame.

- General exclusive specialisation would be great :
melee (+1str so: 1/6: able to attack a bit)) / ranged (+1ranged attack to all units) / horseman : -1mvt cost for all units / recon : can command +5animals, give +20%str to animal minions / mystic : minions can buy Spellstaves for 100gold : can recast : is it more or less expensive than getting a Enchant III mage? / Siege: +1mvt to siege units / Garrison : 0/2 str, double fortification to all units / Admiral : +1str +1mvt to ships minions
or we could get more exotic specializations : Artistic : minions give +3culture per victory, Analytic: Minions give +3science per victory...

otherwise it is good

@azatote : what you said about using GP to boost fodder units is true... but only for Generals whichhas a high-enough level... if the unit dies, it doesn't give xp to the general, so the general stays weak.
a "young"/new general needs to be assigned to mid-level units: strong enough to win some combat, low level enough that they actually earn some xp.

 

[black_imperator]

Suggestions :
-Free Promotion for newly created Generals, so that you can start getting a boost for them
-Military Academy Building that give them passive xp up to X to train them a bit further
-Small Initial Defensive Withdrawal Chance with possibility for further increasing through promotions

Plus a general rework of the promotions they have access to .

(Also i'll take a look at HOTK)

 

[Joey Diamond]

Suggestions :
-Free Promotion for newly created Generals, so that you can start getting a boost for them
-Military Academy Building that give them passive xp up to X to train them a bit further
-Small Initial Defensive Withdrawal Chance with possibility for further increasing through promotions

Plus a general rework of the promotions they have access to .

(Also i'll take a look at HOTK)

-I preferred the commander having an innate minion buff but you calling the shot.
-Does the academy requires parking a commander in a city for X turn like the training yard? If so, it would ultimately be in the player's favor more than AI's because they seems to never do that. I am fine tho if you could add a custom game option where AI instantly recieve maximum XP bonus from these idle training buildings just like we have option to make AI ignore building or level requirement to build units. It's an AI cheat that I don't mind.
-I agree with Calavante on putting Loki and Pegasus mechanic on General. I also preferred MoM way of implement second chance system more than doing a total port from HOTK.

Glad to see AOE going strong after all these years. I wish I could contribute more than this lenghty rant.

 

[black_imperator]

-I preferred the commander having an innate minion buff but you calling the shot.
-Does the academy requires parking a commander in a city for X turn like the training yard? If so, it would ultimately be in the player's favor more than AI's because they seems to never do that. I am fine tho if you could add a custom game option where AI instantly recieve maximum XP bonus from these idle training buildings just like we have option to make AI ignore building or level requirement to build units. It's an AI cheat that I don't mind.
-I agree with Calavante on putting Loki and Pegasus mechanic on General. I also preferred MoM way of implement second chance system more than doing a total port from HOTK.

Glad to see AOE going strong after all these years. I wish I could contribute more than this lenghty rant.

I feel that the free promo gives you the choice of the minion buff you want, instead of a specific one assigned to you.
As for the AI, a main reason they're not using commanders well is that there's not really a proper AI coded for the unit. It's on my todo list ^^

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly I am still a proponent of the HOTK system, at the very least in a partial form. Like, give me the general stat system, the way armies work there including the special menu to form armies and I'll be happy. You can lose the recruitment for money, capture and other side systems if you feel they don't fit. Although personally I think there could be a lot of fun there if combined with FFH religions and races. Like say, being able to buy an elven commander who racially starts with bonuses for archers but is only loyal to FOL civs. Stuff like that.

Although I would probably get rid of money and replace it with some sort of points that let you buy one each time you get enough GP points to spawn one.


I would also love to see the capture system implemented for heroes as well. Like instead of having your hero units die have them get captured and than have to buy them back from your enemy. Or like maybe having your hero back could be part of the peace treaty.

 

[kaapteeniii]

Caveman2Cosmos has had the best Great Commander system I've seen so far. Basic gist is the same, Commander gives out bonuses to all units within range depending on the Commander's promotions. The application of the buffs is different, however. Instead of micromanaging Join Army/Leave Army on every battle if you want maximum efficiency, the Great Commander simply has a set amount of Command Points per turn that deplete on ANY combat within range. For instance; a Great Commander is within range of an Archer and an Axeman. They both attack the enemy, Archer with ranged bombardment and the Axeman with good ol' whack to the face. They both get the Great Commander's buffs for their battles, and regardless of their success the Great Commander gains +1xp per battle within range.

This could potentially help the AI manage Commanders better as well, as they would only have to move the Commander near the front lines and the buffs would apply themselves to all combatants within range.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

To be perfectly honest that sounds incredibly boring to me. Like, where is the gameplay there? Where is the fun if all I have to do is put the general in a general area and forget about him?

 

[kaapteeniii]

It's the same system without micromanaging levels of commanded units. I'm interested in hearing how the gameplay aspects of the current Commander system appeal to you.

What exactly do you do with Commanders now that is somehow more fun than what I proposed? You tell level appropriate to join or leave the army, and you move the Commander to the appropriate position. Fights ensue, buffs are applied, experience is gained. To me the current system looks similar enough to C2C's just with added hurdles.

EDIT: I understand if you simply wish for a more complex system for Commanders. I sympathize with that, but I'm simply cautious about adding complexity to the mod considering AI has so much trouble already (surprisingly little trouble though considering the crazy mechanics implemented).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

EDIT: I understand if you simply wish for a more complex system for Commanders. I sympathize with that, but I'm simply cautious about adding complexity to the mod considering AI has so much trouble already (surprisingly little trouble though considering the crazy mechanics implemented).

I guess there is no need to reply to the rest than since you get where I am coming from. Basically from my perspective what you are proposing would not just be worse than what I want but flat out worse than the current system. At least in the current system we have some gameplay with the GC as opposed to just turning them into a generic totem that you park behind the front lines and forget about.

If it were up to me what we'd have is some sort of catch and release system for heroes (to replace death) and GC's would be a sort of hero that just happens to buff units as opposed to being good in combat.

In fact, come to think of it that's basically what GCs should be. A third type of hero. We have combat heroes and magic heroes already. So a command type hero makes sense. That's basically where Decius from the original FFH falls into.


This said, I am not much opposed to having the GC buff the whole stack if that's better from an AI perspective. But I would definitively not want to get rid of the customization for different unit types as that would be both boring AND overpowering.