AP is such a powerful wonder

[UncleJJ]

It was because you defied the resolutions. If you defy an AP resolution then you lose the +2 hammers bonus from the religious buildings and also get 5 unhappiness in any of your cities with the religion in. This lasts a long time but can be reversed by voting for another AP resolution that passes. Getting control of the AP is very useful, even if you don't use it to win a diplomatic victory, because you can decide whether any of the resolutions the game offers should be voted on. If it is detrimental to you or another civ you don't want hurt you can simply not allow the vote.

 

[Shekwan]

I'm playig a game now and I have AP religion buildings (non-state religion too) and I'm getting the hammers. I'm not using the Bhruic patch.

I really like to build the AP for the production as I'm a serious production whore. Everything else about it is just gravy for me, also I don't like diplo victories...

 

[Bleys]

It was because you defied the resolutions. If you defy an AP resolution then you lose the +2 hammers bonus from the religious buildings and also get 5 unhappiness in any of your cities with the religion in. This lasts a long time but can be reversed by voting for another AP resolution that passes. Getting control of the AP is very useful, even if you don't use it to win a diplomatic victory, because you can decide whether any of the resolutions the game offers should be voted on. If it is detrimental to you or another civ you don't want hurt you can simply not allow the vote.

I thought it might be related to that. Is the "no hammer" thing permanent? The +5 unhappy has gone away (I actually had 2 cities with +10 unhappiness, LOL) but still no hammers.

Also, can I actually get control of it now, other than taking it by force? As a Voting Member, will I be eligible for leadership? Currently, Saladin is actually the "President" even though Justinian built it (I voted for Sal last election, right before I attacked him, and took Mecca and 3 other cities). I have more votes than Justinian now, and Saladin still has 3 cities, 2 of which are over 12-pop. Will he be forced to vote for me (if I am even eligible for the vote).

I may just go stomping through Justinians land anyway, and conquer the darn thing. He has half a dozen wonders in that city, and still doesnt have Rifling (I have Rifling and Steel). Oromos are strong when upgraded to Rifles vs Caph's, they dont have "immune to first strike" like Knights.

 

[futurehermit]

I feel like the AP is kinda like vassals: A good idea in theory, but how it was implemented requires more tweaks to make it workable.

 

[pi-r8]

I just wish the AP had some sort of option to refuse the decision to accept the religious victory vote. Like in master of Orion, where if the high council votes someone the winner, you can refuse to accept the decision and instead have a "final war" of you vs. everyone else.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I just wish the AP had some sort of option to refuse the decision to accept the religious victory vote. Like in master of Orion, where if the high council votes someone the winner, you can refuse to accept the decision and instead have a "final war" of you vs. everyone else.

This would be terrific and very fun .

I already like using this sucker for dogpiles too.

 

[Celebithil]

The unhappiness from defying will fade with time (like whipping unhappiness, only slower). However the +2 hammers will only return when you vote with the majority on a new AP-vote (this could be really quick, or take ages, depending on how quickly the new vote comes up.)

 

[UncleJJ]

I just wish the AP had some sort of option to refuse the decision to accept the religious victory vote. Like in master of Orion, where if the high council votes someone the winner, you can refuse to accept the decision and instead have a "final war" of you vs. everyone else.

If I remember correctly, when you are the Resident then you can decide to not allow the vote for the religious victory. Also if you are a large voter you can abstain and there will be insufficient votes for the other civs or you to win. So if you think winning by the AP is cheesy you can effectively stop it by taking control and stopping anyone from getting that victory, including yourself. I'd say that was an additional challenge rather than making the game too easy. The AP is a great game feature in my opinion and a major addition in BtS.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If I remember correctly, when you are the Resident then you can decide to not allow the vote for the religious victory. Also if you are a large voter you can abstain and there will be insufficient votes for the other civs or you to win. So if you think winning by the AP is cheesy you can effectively stop it by taking control and stopping anyone from getting that victory, including yourself. I'd say that was an additional challenge rather than making the game too easy. The AP is a great game feature in my opinion and a major addition in BtS.

This is true. However, you don't even have to call the vote. You can just pick the "no action" option or whatever. If you're the AP chair, it's impossible to win this way if you don't want to. If you're not AP chair, you probably don't have THAT commanding of a lead in the religion, though I could envision some extremely rare exceptions.

You also don't have to go spreading it around if you don't want the win. Accidental AP wins are rare...I've only had one and it was after I'd wiped out everyone but a friendly civ and his vassals, capturing the AP in the process. I didn't even spread the religion in that one, but I'd captured more cities than the remaining vassals had, and my only competitor liked me and wasn't in that religion. He had more votes than I did and voted me a win. Even then, I was willing to win that way, or I'd have not called the vote.

Every other AP win for me has been intentional, and in many cases schemed (aka capturing the AP and using it to win, or building it early in a rare religion...typically christianity but occasionally something like taoism or confuc.)

Does everyone actually view this as "cheap" instead of just "powerful"? Not only do you have to have it, you need 75% votes. You have to pick a religion to get someone to like you, without getting killed. You also need OB with everyone or you'll have to go to war anyway, and if you spent too much effort on the AP that might be harder than normal, although you can probably draw some religious allies into the fray at least.

There are lots of strong wonders, like the mids really turbocharging the SE and making games a lot easier.

I agree that the AP makes the game easier, but often if you clear the diplomatic conditions necessary to win using it (aka someone ultra friendly with you and people not killing you), you can usually last in the game long enough to win other conditions also. I had a game where my AP attempt failed (PYL III, actually), but the diplomatic leverage I'd set up was more than enough to pick civs off one by one until I was the largest civ on the planet.

IMO it's not any cheaper than buddying up with a strong AI and teching to space, or winning via culture.

 

[Bleys]

If I remember correctly, when you are the Resident then you can decide to not allow the vote for the religious victory. Also if you are a large voter you can abstain and there will be insufficient votes for the other civs or you to win. So if you think winning by the AP is cheesy you can effectively stop it by taking control and stopping anyone from getting that victory, including yourself. I'd say that was an additional challenge rather than making the game too easy. The AP is a great game feature in my opinion and a major addition in BtS.

This is very true. In the game I referenced above, I voted Saladin in as Resident, then I took out 4 of his cities. Since those cities put me WELL over the top for a voting majority, as each subsequent vote for a new Resident came up (not me, BTW, I was not eligible for leadership until I actually took the AP city) I constantly "abstained", and thus, neither Justinian or Sury ever gained control of it. Eventually, I took out the city with the AP, and now I am the Resident.

The hammer thing is still kind of weird. Any city that I owned when I defied a Resolution still does not get the +2 hammers (even though it was over 100 turns since my last "defiance" and all the unhappiness is long since faded). Any city I took after that point (4 from Sal, 2 from Sury, 3 from Justy) has the +2 hammers listed under the Temple and Mandhir. I am still playing that game, actually, the AIs have managed to spy their way to tech parity (grrr), so I am now just planning to wipe Justy out and win a Domination victory very soon. It was a fun game, BTW, (shameful plug for the PYL series, heh)

 

[Bleys]

I wont call it "cheap", TMIT, but I do admit that I rarely pursue this kind of victory condition, simply because I prefer a more warring-building type of victory (meaning Domination, Conquest, or Space). So many AP wins seem to be fairly unplanned, kind of "oh, ok, I win now, I guess".

In your case, where you specifically pursue this as a firm strategic plan, its not cheap or cheesy at all IMHO. The strategy requires reasonable skills, a tech line that is not so hot, strong diplomatic ability, and missionaries instead of units. Its not the easiest intentional path to victory. Now, the "hmm, I conquered the AP city, what does this Religious Leader vote mean? HEY! It means I win!!!" is a tad cheesy, though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I wont call it "cheap", TMIT, but I do admit that I rarely pursue this kind of victory condition, simply because I prefer a more warring-building type of victory (meaning Domination, Conquest, or Space). So many AP wins seem to be fairly unplanned, kind of "oh, ok, I win now, I guess".

In your case, where you specifically pursue this as a firm strategic plan, its not cheap or cheesy at all IMHO. The strategy requires reasonable skills, a tech line that is not so hot, strong diplomatic ability, and missionaries instead of units. Its not the easiest intentional path to victory. Now, the "hmm, I conquered the AP city, what does this Religious Leader vote mean? HEY! It means I win!!!" is a tad cheesy, though.

Lol I hate space and culture. I have nothing against those victory conditions but they require patience that I often seem to lack.

Along those lines, I'll use the AP (or UN) either as part of a focused strategy, or just to backdoor out of a domination if it looks like it's going to take forever. Again, patience issues . Notice virtually all of my games, even the harder ones, are sub 5 hours on epic (JC RPC I took over being the exception, since that had 18 civs and needed conquest - that game was around 5:20). Most are well under 4. If it looks like I'm going to have to tech for 80 turns to catch up to the enemy militarily, I'll go for diplo rather than sitting there at friendly until I stab them with 60 mech infantry and 80 cruise missiles. If I can't get diplo then tough luck for them though, space isn't my thing unless it's required in a roleplay (only recent SS win was "win this game I" by futurehermit) or something .

 

[siggboy]

My main objection with the AP are not the cheap wins. It's the fact that you can use its "diplomacy" without actually working any diplomacy. If you don't control it yourself you might have to pull some serious religious stunts to simply save your butt, and religions are often hard enough to handle even without the AP in play (since your relations with the AIs depend so heavily on them).

Maybe my opinion will change when I understand the AP better.

 

[Plinko16]

My last game I could have abused the AP this way, I had 3/4 of the votes in the AP (Confucian), with my vassal and a friendly AI neighbor the only others with the AP religion spread to every city
The other continent had 4 Civs, all relatively small split between Buddhism and Hinduism and none with Confucianism in any cities yet. With some diplomacy/EP work I could have easily spread Confucianism to one small city of each of the four and voted myself into a Diplo victory rather quickly, but that's really cheesy to do.

Bleys - once you became Resident, did you put up any votes that passed? Isn't that the key to getting the hammers back? I know on the rare occasions I take charge of the AP, I don't have a lot of votes to put up and so don't initiate many.

 

[Bleys]

Bleys - once you became Resident, did you put up any votes that passed? Isn't that the key to getting the hammers back? I know on the rare occasions I take charge of the AP, I don't have a lot of votes to put up and so don't initiate many.

Not yet, in fact I just became Resident a few turns back, so I am waiting for an actual "vote" on something too see if I get the hammers back in all my cities. I will let you know, trying to wrap this game up.