Apolyton Diplomacy: Of Chivalry and Encroachment

[Donovan Zoi]

If you will turn your attention to the Turn 146 thread, you will see that in the north Apolyton is advancing two Medieval Infantry units from just south of their Silk colony. As far as I can see, this violates Article III of our Alliance(below - section in boldface).

Correct me if I am wrong, but were the chokepoints not "mutually agreed on borders?" Or does our border agreement need to be officially ratified to be honored here?

III - Right of Passage
Both nations agree to allow the naval units of either nation to travel in the
cultural borders of the other nation.

However, before sending in any group of ships larger than two, either nation must
inform the other of the size and nature of the naval group, and ask permission
before entering the coastal waters of the other

Neither nation shall enter the land inside the cultural borders, or any mutually agreed on borders, of the other without prior approval.

If we are indeed justified in our concerns, then I believe it would be catastrophic to grant our newly-acquired Chivalry tech to Apolyton. However, if we follow our Alliance to the letter, we may be able to avoid doing so anyway. Nowhere in Article II does it mention anything about how we handle techs received from another nation.

One minor issue is if we may have violated a section of Article II(below - section in boldface) by not disclosing our trade with CGN. Or if we have alerted our allies to this trade, how will we convince them that they cannot have it until they remove their troops? Before I set up talks with Poly, I would like some input here.

II - Technological Parity
Both nations pledge to share with the other what tech is being researched and what tech is planned to be researched.

Both nations will faithfully attempt to never cross-research or compete by researching the same tech.

Both nations prioritize trades with each other, prefering trades with an ally than with another party.

The two parties of this pact are to combine their economic power to enable the best possible research rate.

Both nations will show full disclosure on their economic situation, and act accordingly.

Any technology researched co-operatively is to be shared between the two parties of this pact.

I would like to address this matter soon, so please discuss it at your earliest convenience. Our survival may depend on it.

 

[GenMarshall]

So this Free-Passage treaty will technicly make our waters International Waters?

 

[Vander]

The've played diplomatic hardball with us before; let's play right back with this. We'll give them Chiv, but after they move their guys.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

Yea that sounds good after that little thing about Balance of Power.

 

[Ankka]

I thnk we shouldn't give chiv before they hand BoP to us. hey have been playing with us like if we were a ball, but now we are gonna pay back! We mustn't give Chiv to them at any cheap price: they must pay for it dearly if they wanna get it from us.

 

[Yndy]

It's reasonable for us to hold anything we agreed to give them until they give us what they are supposed to or we agree to waive that.

I say that as we just have a problem at work with a client not paying us for three months and expecting us to provide more work from now on.

Still, tell them about it. It's not that we are trying to trickthem or anything.

 

[croxis]

I'm trying to arrange a chat with DZ and Poly, as soon as zarn gets me contact info

 

[Zarn]

It's sent, Croxis.

 

[Hygro]

Originally posted by Wizard
I thnk we shouldn't give chiv before they hand BoP to us. hey have been playing with us like if we were a ball, but now we are gonna pay back! We mustn't give Chiv to them at any cheap price: they must pay for it dearly if they wanna get it from us.

I wholly agree with this one!

 

[croxis]

I requested a chat with them this thursday at 10:00pm GMT

 

[Bootstoots]

I knew about the issue with the MI's, and forgot to relay anything on; I apologize for that. Apolyton asked (via Trip) if they could move two MI's to protect their silk colony in the mean time before we got Equilibrium (should that become the decided course of action), and I did not see how there could be any concerns about this, so I told them that they could.

Regarding BoP, there was no agreement at any time that we were to get that city; I think that we are likely not to get that city, however they would be willing to give us Equilibrium as a compromise. I think we should accept that deal; BoP is not worth souring relations when we can still obtain a chokepoint, if not at the optimal location.

 

[croxis]

BOOTS! YOU"RE FIRED!

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by croxis
I requested a chat with them this thursday at 10:00pm GMT

croxis, has anyone from Apolyton confirmed that meeting? I will be available at that time, so it is fine with me.

I knew about the issue with the MI's, and forgot to relay anything on; I apologize for that. Apolyton asked (via Trip) if they could move two MI's to protect their silk colony in the mean time before we got Equilibrium (should that become the decided course of action), and I did not see how there could be any concerns about this, so I told them that they could.

Boots, even with an alliance, we should always be made aware of something like this, if only to keep me from posting paranoid daitribes as I have done in the first post here.

Even so, in my talks Thursday(should that schedule be confirmed) I plan to bring up the Equilibrium/ PoV situation. I will also ask them what their situation is with Chivalry. I may mention the possibilty of a three-front war, if only to get their perspective on such a thing for the distant future. I also plan to obtain any information that our Alliance entitles us to(their research, treasury, gpt etc).

If anyone can think of anything else please let me know.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

I thnk we shouldn't give chiv before they hand BoP to us. hey have been playing with us like if we were a ball, but now we are gonna pay back! We mustn't give Chiv to them at any cheap price: they must pay for it dearly if they wanna get it from us.

I agree.We must try t aprouach Apolyton as an equal ally and not a sattleite country.We could settle for another city however at this point we can check Poly's loyalty by urging them to hand over a city for chivalery.Afcourse we must not hurt the alliance ,we must be very machiavelic trying to squeez everything we can from this alliance withought antagonizing our ally so they break up.

 

[Peri]

This will be very tricky. We have little real barganing power. If they chose to become more agressive with us we would have to accept it. We must not demand anything from them but make them give of their own accord.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

This will be very tricky. We have little real barganing power. If they chose to become more agressive with us we would have to accept it. We must not demand anything from them but make them give of their own accord.

Having chivalery and them not makes gives us some leverage.We should point out that giving over Balance of Power would be a symbolic act that strenthens the alliance a lot ,since it provides for a reasonable balance between the 2 country's ,while BoP in Poly hands can be seen symbolicly as threatening.

My advice would be to stall the agreement of handing over chivalery as long as they don't offer BoP to us for it and maybe some extra's.Just make the proposal for Bop for Chivalery ,they will want that tech.If they come with a counter proposal wich doesn't include Bop then make another counter proposal that gives chivalery and some more for BoP.Drag on the diplomatic talks so long until they are willing to grant over BoP.Make it a symbolic act of "strenthening" the alliance.There are plenty enough of arguments that BoP belongs to us in a setting of an equal alliance.Now when the alliance was signed Apolyton stated symbolicly that this alliance was more than a strategical matter a matter of helping out a community wich it was friend to.We can use this word on them to see how far they are willing to go to have an equal alliance with us ,should they make a big deal of it then we know that in long term strategy we can't trust Apolyton ayway ,as they want to hold on to a purely very strategical city at the border of our country wich can only be usefull for staging invasions on us ,not very much for production etc.

As im opposed to the official three way alliance ,i would urge the leadership to make good independant relations with CGN.If we can make very good seperate relations with CGN while Apolyton hasn't got such relations with CGN then we can increase our diplomatic influence.

I am of the oppinion that we should op to make a deffensive alliance with CGN out of the scope of the alliance with Apolyton in conditions to morraly seperate the alliances.Then we could use that defensive Alliance on GWT withought pulling Poly in the conflict ,and GWT defensive alliance would offer a extra motivation for Apolyton to not declare war on us.

 

[Peri]

This is sound thinking DoF. We dont want BoP for ourselves but as symbol of our alliance. Very good

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Another thing ,i should also stress the importance of offering a settler in return for BoP.There is still unused land that Apolyton can settle ,giving a settler is almost the same as giving a city.Only if they were really interrested in the strategic influence of BoP wich conflicts the balance of the alliance then they would still hold on to BoP. (a minor city and uninterresting for poly in a economical perspective)
Offering a settler for a size 1 infrastructure low city can morraly be justified as a fair trade.Especially within an alliance and definatly when the city is way more valuable for the receiving country ,and certainly when their is still unused land to settle.

You will have to work on Polly ,drag them to the table and discuss the matter untill they are sick of it and throw BoP at us just to get rid of the persistent nagging.

 

[croxis]

Croxis,

Thank you for your letter. I've posted it to the Apolyton board and will talk to my staff tonight to see if anyone can chat with you then.

I, personally, cannot chat at that time. I work until 5-6 PST which is about 1-2am your time.

But I'll get back to you on if anyone else from our team can meet at that time.

--Togas

They will also let me know if another time that day will be better for them as well.

 

[Octavian X]

Let me just say that our allinace specifies that troops shall not enter cultural borders. According to current agreements, then, they are not in violation of any treaty regarding troop movement.

My guess is that those MIs are after a barb camp we don't know about.

This chat should focus on chivalry and BoP solely; only let their MIs come up casually. Just ask why they're there 'out of curiosity.'