Apostles with two promotions

Hep Roc Heretic

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Question about apostles that have concurrent Proselytizer and the Translator promotions: Do the effects stack? Does the apostle eliminate 75% of the existing pressure and have 3x religious spread strength with each charge?
 
How to have more than 1 promotion, except having a World wonder like the one from france, on marsh place
 
Governor Moksha has a promotion that grants you a second promotion on apostles.
I also like the divine architect promotion, it allows the purchase of so many vital districts and buildings that are vital for victory.
 
Is it worth it to accumulate both the Proselytizer and the Translator promotion on the same Apostle? Don't get me wrong, they are the strongest promotions available. Yet, I feel it is quite overkill and not optimized. But I could be wrong.

Proselytizers are really good to lower Holy cities and the cities around them, as they tend to get an astronomical amount of religious pressure: they act as global Inquisitors. Plus: they can be allowed to get into some theological combat and lose a few HP if needed since it is their ability to remove religious pressure and not the strength of their spread that matter.
Translators are more useful to spread religion to cities with few religious pressure: they act as super-Missionaries. But theological combat have to be avoided since we need them at full strength.

Basically, I believe that Proselytizers have a good synergy with Translators that will finish the conversion, yet Translators don't always need Proselytizers if the city has few to no religious pressure already. That is why I rather want Pilgrim or Orator instead. Furthermore, I need more Translators than Proselytizers.

I should do the math to see if even Orator is more worth or not in most situations.
 
I also like the divine architect promotion, it allows the purchase of so many vital districts and buildings that are vital for victory.
Divine Architect is so broken that it’s central on one of my ”major flaws of Civ6” lists, so yeah …
 
Divine Architect is so broken that it’s central on one of my ”major flaws of Civ6” lists, so yeah …
Really? How so? I've gotten SVs by purchasing spaceports with divine architect before and it worked.
 
Divine Architect is so broken that it’s central on one of my ”major flaws of Civ6” lists, so yeah …


Really? How so? I've gotten SVs by purchasing spaceports with divine architect before and it worked.

I think that's the point. It's "broken" in the sense that it makes an aspect of the game that is supposed to be difficult too easy.

If I'm planning to have a high faith empire (which is every time I'm going for science or culture victory) I often use the first 4 governor titles just to get Moksha to Divine Architect, it's that powerful.
 
I think that's the point. It's "broken" in the sense that it makes an aspect of the game that is supposed to be difficult too easy.

If I'm planning to have a high faith empire (which is every time I'm going for science or culture victory) I often use the first 4 governor titles just to get Moksha to Divine Architect, it's that powerful.
Makes sense, seems like you think it's overpowered.
 
Yeah, sorry if that was not clear, my point is it is very powerful. But actually my main objection is not so much the power in itself - it can be ok that some strategies are powerful. But I feel like a central part of the empire management in Civ6 is centred around the fact that things are expensive to produce in terms of production cost and time. That is not a design decision I agree with - in fact I think it’s a very bad design decision, because it makes the game a lot of waiting while nothing happens - but it’s the design decision that was made, but then we have a feature like faith buying [districts, units, great persons …] that completely circumvents this. And that is something of the worst you can do to your own game imo.

in fact, this is symptomatic of many parts of the governor system and is one of the reasons I really dislike how they were implemented. Another example is how training a settler costing a pop point was supposed to limit super fast expansion, but then you have a promotion on Magnus - as well as Monumentality, of course, the mother of all evils in the game - circumventing this. Now one may argue that these things are balanced by the limited number of governor promotions, and that is true to some extent, but the fact that most governor promotions are crap undercuts this attempt at balance.
 
I should do the math to see if even Orator is more worth or not in most situations.

I made the math. As I suspected a team of 1 × Proselytizer/Orator and 1 × Translator/Orator is better than a team of 2 × Proselytizer/Translator.

Team 1:
1 × Proselytizer/Orator has 5 charges of +220 religious spread and -75% pressure.
1 × Translator/Orator has 5 charges of +660 religious spread and -25% pressure.
We assume that -75% pressure is equal to 5 × -25% (in fact, closer to 4.8×)*
In the end, we have 5 × (220 + 660) = 4400 spreads and basically 6 charges of -75% pressure.

Team 2:
2 × Proselytizer/Translator have 6 charges of 660 Spread and -75% pressure.
In the end, we have 6 × 660 = 3960 religious pressure and 6 charges of -75% pressure.

Conclusion:
Excluding the advantage of better management from Team 1 (optimization between light/hard pressure removal, less wasted potential, have more room to tactical sacrifice...), a team of 1 × Proselytizer/Orator and 1 × Translator/Orator has more religious spreads (4400 > 3960) and marginally more pressure removal than a team of 2 × Proselytizer/Translator.

The gap is wider with Pilgrim (+3 charges) instead of Orator (+2 charges), but can be reversed if base Apostle enjoys additional charges from worship building, wonders or golden age dedication which can lead Proselytizer/Translator Apostles being better.

* : Here an explanation to -75% = 5 × -25%.
We roughly need 5 × -25% pressure to equal 1 × -75% as every consecutive -25% pressure are weaker (since we already removed -25% already). For example, from 1000 pressure a -75% leaves 250 pressure left (-750) thanks to Proselytizer. But a regular Apostle with -25% pressure, starting from 1000 pressure, a -25% leaves 750 pressure left (-250), then 563 pressure left (-187), then 423 pressure left (-140), then 318 pressure left (-105), and then 239 pressure left (-79).
The formula is (1-75%) = (1-25%)^x, so x = ln(0.25)/ln(0.75) = 4.8
 
Yeah, sorry if that was not clear, my point is it is very powerful. But actually my main objection is not so much the power in itself - it can be ok that some strategies are powerful. But I feel like a central part of the empire management in Civ6 is centred around the fact that things are expensive to produce in terms of production cost and time. That is not a design decision I agree with - in fact I think it’s a very bad design decision, because it makes the game a lot of waiting while nothing happens - but it’s the design decision that was made, but then we have a feature like faith buying [districts, units, great persons …] that completely circumvents this. And that is something of the worst you can do to your own game imo.

in fact, this is symptomatic of many parts of the governor system and is one of the reasons I really dislike how they were implemented. Another example is how training a settler costing a pop point was supposed to limit super fast expansion, but then you have a promotion on Magnus - as well as Monumentality, of course, the mother of all evils in the game - circumventing this. Now one may argue that these things are balanced by the limited number of governor promotions, and that is true to some extent, but the fact that most governor promotions are crap undercuts this attempt at balance.
The speeds vary this: quick, normal, fast(?) and marathon.. If you play a lot in marathon you will feel this way.
 
The speeds vary this: quick, normal, fast(?) and marathon.. If you play a lot in marathon you will feel this way.
I play normal speed exclusively, but I agree that slower game speeds will probably only emphasize this problem.
 
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