archers and experience

[Neomega]

I fail to see the wisdom of making a pot-shot with an archer experience worthy. It really is just annoying to me, and I think it sucks they have pretty much a magical ticket to sixth level by just sitting there and shooting. As if archers were not tough enough as it is showing up on turn 1, but now they can level up to ungodly levels.

why even build an archery range? Just go shoot at barbarians, you'll get well past 10 xp.

 

[WarKirby]

Enjoy paying support costs for having those archers outside your borders shooting barbarians.

Unless they're inside your borders, in which case enjoy being pillaged while you shoot instead of killing them

It's far less of a magical ticket to lv6 than it used to be, thanks to the recent soft cap. The main reason it exists is to make it worthwhile to use archers as dedicated ranged attackers. They have low attack strength, and continue to have low attack strength for the whole game. So they're pretty much deprived of the "Double xp for Winning on the Offensive" that melee units can take advantage of. And there's a thread in the FFH strategy forums which pretty much mathematically proves that archers are almost useless. They're a lot better in FF because of ranged attacks, and the ability to level up from it, and it's less of a "swarm axemen at all costs" game as a result.

Also consider that the archery promotions have no direct combat benefits. This is an opportunity cost, meaning that while your archers get better at shooting things, they don't get better at defending the stack. Without those archery promos, gaining significant levels through shooting stuff takes a LOOOOOOOONG time.

The only thing that's really magical about sixth level is the sidar shading. And upgrading to immortal, I guess, but can archery units even do the latter?

If getting shades as Sidar is too easy, perhaps that needs to be rebalanced for FF ? FF also has the passive xp buildings, xp boosting promos from commanders, and decimal xp accounted for. These things make levelling up in general easier than FFH. So if an FFh feature is too easy to take advantage of because of them, then that feature is what needs to be considered for rebalancing, not reverting things to make us more like FFH.

 

[Neomega]

I just threw out 6 as a number. And I have never thought archers were useless Somebody must be over thinking the subject.

re: unit cost for archers.... not a problem.

re: passive buildings.... those usually max out at 10xp, no?

 

[Vehem]

I fail to see the wisdom of making a pot-shot with an archer experience worthy. It really is just annoying to me, and I think it sucks they have pretty much a magical ticket to sixth level by just sitting there and shooting. As if archers were not tough enough as it is showing up on turn 1, but now they can level up to ungodly levels.

why even build an archery range? Just go shoot at barbarians, you'll get well past 10 xp.

As a fix for a personal version - check Assets\XML\GlobalDefinesAlt.xml (you can open it in Notepad). Search for "RANGE_COMBAT_EXPERIENCE_PERCENTAGE" which by default is set to 5. Setting it to 0 will disable the effect completely, or any value less than 5 will reduce it to suit tastes.

It's one I'm still looking for feedback on with regards to balance - it used to be much too strong, but is it still too useful?

 

[WarKirby]

The thread I mentioned is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=309319

read for yourself and see. I pretty much agree with everything mentioned there. Archers in FFH are pretty worthless. Just one of the (many) reasons I like FF better.

 

[xienwolf]

Might be worth making Sidar shades happen at level 7 instead of 6 I suppose. We do offer far more XP chances.

 

[kenken244]

I find that ranged attacks make defensive strikes almost worthless as using a ranged attack negates your defensive strike, while ranged attacks always deal damage and work even if the unit does not attack.

 

[WarKirby]

Try getting Blitz and drill IV, then see how you feel about defensive strikes
Blitz allows infinite defensive strikes per turn. It also allows you to do a ranged attack and then a normal attack in the same turn

 

[xienwolf]

You should always be allowed both a ranged and a normal attack, and thus also a ranged and defensive strike. Was pretty sure we set that up.

 

[WarKirby]

You should always be allowed both a ranged and a normal attack

This is definitely not true.

Also, even with blitz, I believe you can only do a ranged attack before a normal attack. After having done one normal attack, you're unable to do ranged, even if you still have moves left, and can therefore do another normal attack.

and thus also a ranged and defensive strike.

This, I'm not sure about would have to test. But since you're wrong about the first point, and there's implied dependance between them, it's probably also not working like that.

 

[Riot_Starter]

I just tested in worldbuilder, this is what I got:

1)Units can move and shoot on same turn (and vice versa)
2)Ranged attack blocks attacking, and attacking disables ranged attack.
3)Ranged attack disables defensive strikes.

The save I used is attached for those who care to mess around with 100% defensive strike crossbowmen.

 

[Iceciro]

FWIW I think Archers SHOULDN'T be able to attack and ranged attack in a single turn. But I do think that they should be able to do a defensive strike the turn they ranged attack. It promotes stacks of multiple unit types.

 

[WarKirby]

FWIW I think Archers SHOULDN'T be able to attack and ranged attack in a single turn. But I do think that they should be able to do a defensive strike the turn they ranged attack. It promotes stacks of multiple unit types.

In all fairness, the difference it would make is almost nil, except to Gilden Silveric, Teutorix, Arthendain and Kithra Kyriel.

For the majority of the game, normal archery units are too weak to do anything but die when they attack directly. Though I guess crossbowmen and arquebusiers are perhaps powerful enough to do stuff.

 

[Breez]

getting exp beyond 20 seems to take forever now, but I like that a lot better than the old way it was and I like getting SOMETHING as opposed to nothing.

re: passive buildings.... those usually max out at 10xp, no?

Yes

Try getting Blitz and drill IV, then see how you feel about defensive strikes
Blitz allows infinite defensive strikes per turn. It also allows you to do a ranged attack and then a normal attack in the same turn

My archers 1st 5 promotions are drills 1-4 and blitz. A few archers with Blitz/Drill 4 and 80% of attackers are getting hit by Defensive strikes. With Longbowmen and the Archery promotions I am seeign 50%-70% damage done pretty consistently from defensive strikes.

note: that takes several high level Longbowman, it almost seems as if I get 20% of attackers getting hit by defensive strikes per promoted longbow defender... (anecdotal observations not parsed out facts)

On this subject did something happen to the advaced Archer promotions? The ones that increased Ranged attack and Max damage %? Seems the only ones I have seen since 051 are "Increase Defensive Strike Hit %" and "Increase Defensive Strike Damage Cap" I liked the other ones

 

[xienwolf]

Ah, it was the moving/ranged attack I was remembering fiddling with.

Curious how Blitz works with ranged attacks right now. You should be able to get in 1 ranged per turn even if you have attacked if you have blitz IMO. But I doubt that it works that way.

EDIT: Do you get XP for Defensive Striking? You ought to get a bit I think

 

[WarKirby]

Curious how Blitz works with ranged attacks right now. You should be able to get in 1 ranged per turn even if you have attacked if you have blitz IMO. But I doubt that it works that way.

Just tested. If you have already done a normal attack, you cannot use a ranged attack, even with blitz.

however, it works the other way around.

without blitz, doing a ranged attack removes the ability to do a normal attack. And vice versa

with blitz, you can do a ranged attack, and then as many normal attacks as movement allows. However, if you have already done a normal attack, you can never do a ranged attack in the same turn. Specific order is enforced


Sounds broken cap'n

 

[xienwolf]

Not broken, just not accounted for.

 

[xienwolf]

So now the question which remains is: Do we want to have Ranged Strikes prevent Defensive Strikes between turns, or just attacking? I think making a ranged strike should not prevent making a defensive strike.

 

[Breez]

currently I like the option enough that Blitz is standard for me on the archer line.

Of course you are just talking Offensive vs Defensive, you would still limit to one defensive strike with out Blitz correct?

If you continue to limit one defensive strike with out blitz then I think it that is fine. That would preserve Blitz as a useful promotion but make it just slightly less needed.

but I may be biased. I look forward to reading other comments.

 

[Valkrionn]

I say allow a defensive strike after a ranged attack, on the assumption that they'd be attacking while the enemy is still distant... The normal attack seems more a close-range ranged attack to me.